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Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

theswaddle.com

121–130 of 159 posts

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control. Empathy is an incredible virtue, but it must be disciplined. I don't know enough neuroscience to know what the "right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex" is exactly but I know that you can over-ride/master it with reason and discipline. So I think there's something more to people allowing their better nature to slip under stress than simple brain chemicals. A colone…

Good sentiment. But when your being hurt emotionally and physically most days. Numbness becomes your only real defense.

> But when your being hurt emotionally and physically most days. Numbness becomes your only real defense.

While I empathize with people using numbness, it's not true that it's the only defense. Hurt is something in you; it's your perceptual experience and you can control that. Someone hurts me because I let them. That doesn't excuse them, but takes away their power: I can look at it differently.

It's not a panacea, but I've been through what you've talked about and not surrendering my empathy, not letting them destroy that part of me, was something I was determined to do.

Compassion is a great too, your armor: Compassion for yourself, displacing the hurt from others, and for the abusers, which takes away much of their power.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#122

Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. It seems in many cases to be correlated with anxiety and depression. It can be difficult for people with high levels of empathy to recognize the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others. As a kid I was highly empathetic, and it's something I've struggled with my entire life. It never really felt li…

Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control. Empathy is an incredible virtue, but it must be disciplined. I don't know enough neuroscience to know what the "right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex" is exactly but I know that you can over-ride/master it with reason and discipline. So I think there's something more to people allowing their better nature to slip under stress than simple brain chemicals. A colone…

I've noticed that at least some military officers, especially above a certain rank, seem to have this supernatural calm under stress. I read a story about a submarine accident, where some outsiders happened to be on-board, and they said that as the crew starting running around, the captain - who likely had just lost their career - got on the loudspeaker and said, in an almost friendly tone, 'hey, I know your hearts are pump, pump, pumping. Just remember your training and trust each other.' I've seen it in other places.

What is the training or technique used? I'd love to learn more about it.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#123

Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. It seems in many cases to be correlated with anxiety and depression. It can be difficult for people with high levels of empathy to recognize the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others. As a kid I was highly empathetic, and it's something I've struggled with my entire life. It never really felt li…

> Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways.

The grass may be greener, etc., but I am jealous - I would love your superpower and its tradeoffs; I'll give you mine. What a way to experience the world and people.

(Though maybe jealousy is a form of empathy? ;) )

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You _can_ get a fairly accurate sense of how people are feeling or what they are thinking, and some people are better at this than others. Call it intuition, body language, or whatever else, it doesn't inherently make it arrogance. Being mindful of how you could be incorrect in what, at the end of the day, are assumptions that require confirmation, is important; without this is where the true arrogance lies.

I think assuming how people feel and what people are thinking without asking them, giving them agency, is nearly the very pinnacle of arrogance. further, this can be some of the most damaging behavior you participate in on a daily basis, both to you and to the person you do it to. I cannot overstate how toxic to your relationships and to yourself this behavior is. You need to let people express themselves, and listen…

You are right that assuming you completely understand another person’s mind can cause (serious) problems in your relationship with them. But people also “tell you how they feel” with more than just words. So it’s not as simple as “ignore everything but the spoken or written word”.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than saying "You are close to understanding, but keep going", it would be more helpful to explain why you think that disciplined empathy is no longer empathy. I agree with the previous poster, but I'm curious to learn what you mean.

Being vague as all get out is really on brand for advice from the Dao De Ching.

If you notice, much philosophy - generally defined, including religion - is vague. Much great art is vague. It may turn out that, unlike technical manuals, there is no value in spelling out everything. Either the reader engages or not and if they do, they don't need it spelled out - they create it in their own neural pathways, in their own mind, which is far more valuable than reading it. And if they don't, it doesn't matter anyway. It's not a new idea:

From the Christian Gospels (Mark 4)

Jesus tells the parable of the sower, ending, ""He who has ears, let him hear." And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that 'they may indeed see but not perceive, / and may indeed hear but not understand, / lest they should turn and be forgiven.'" And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.""

From the Quran:

As for the unbelievers, alike it is to them / whether thou hast warned them or hast not warned them, / they do not believe. / God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, / and on their eyes is a covering, / and there awaits them a mighty chastisement.

Regarding allegory in Medieval philosophy: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/medieval-literary/

The controversial and difficult question is why these medieval thinkers chose the allegorical form, and whether the text can be understood without its allegorical form. Avicenna tells us that what he purports to do by allegory is to convey one message to the "many" in sensible imagery they can understand, while conveying a different message to the philosophically minded few .... Neoplatonic and Christian writers ... [cited] the importance of not 'casting one's pearls before swine' ...

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#126

Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. It seems in many cases to be correlated with anxiety and depression. It can be difficult for people with high levels of empathy to recognize the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others. As a kid I was highly empathetic, and it's something I've struggled with my entire life. It never really felt li…

> Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. The grass may be greener, etc., but I am jealous - I would love your superpower and its tradeoffs; I'll give you mine. What a way to experience the world and people. (Though maybe jealousy is a form of empathy? ;) )

> The grass may be greener

I think one thing that people don't realize is that with high levels of empathy you risk enmeshment with others, and a loss of your own self boundary. You don't know where there thoughts and pains end and where yours begin.

It leads to desperately wanting to fix those around you, because you suffer as long as they suffer. And when you discover you can't fix everything, you either detach from everyone, or begin the process of numbing yourself. (Most of these are unconscious reactions to painful stimuli.)

So I guess: be careful what you wish for!

I still want empathy, I just wish I could tune it down by like 50% without numbing.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm, in my mind empathy isn't just cognitively understanding that somebody is feeling pain, it's feeling that pain on their behalf. Most people have that ability to some degree, but it's extremely magnified in certain individuals.

Yeah I tend to separate empathy (being able to put yourself in another's shoes and feel what they're feeling) and "other-oriented-ness". Having empathy means you understand what the driver behind you at the fast food restaurant is feeling emotionally if you take too long at the window. Being other-oriented is feeling stressed and wanting to move forward before you've completely checked your order, because you don't w…

That's an interesting way to look at it. And a very good example, because that drive through scenario is literally the type of thing I feel almost constantly. I laughed out loud when I read it, because it perfectly describes how I react to almost everything in life that involves other people.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! I've only begun to put the pieces in the last couple of years while trying to figure out why my behavior is the way it is. Haven't made a ton of progress, but knowledge feels like a good first step. Planning to try to find a therapist, but one of the challenges is that many people in this position apparently avoid therapy, because they fear empathizing too much with the therapist, rather than focusing on t…

You're a person to be loved, not a problem to be solved.

Thank you, this actually means a lot.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#129
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about skills, not willpower. Every study I've seen suggests that willpower is not trainable. Maybe it is, that would be great. Note, that you can train altruistic and empathetic appearing behaviors. So yes, even though you're all starving, the men eat first. Yes, you are going to risk your life doing X. Yes, you are going to tell everyone its okay and appear calm even while you're panicking.

Willpower is not an effective way to deal with emotions, beyond the very short term - and then you will have blowback. Suppressing your emotions is a great way to have them take over your life and without you being conscious of it (you suppressed them!).

This struck a cord. Can I get you to elaborate?

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! I've only begun to put the pieces in the last couple of years while trying to figure out why my behavior is the way it is. Haven't made a ton of progress, but knowledge feels like a good first step. Planning to try to find a therapist, but one of the challenges is that many people in this position apparently avoid therapy, because they fear empathizing too much with the therapist, rather than focusing on t…

That makes sense, thanks for the insight. I’ve had similar concerns in the past and it seems when I stuck with licensed workers (licensed social workers, clinical psychologists, and psychiatrists) they seemed well trained to wall themselves off emotionally from me (refuse to give personal information, refuse to visibly react to things I say, very careful when expressing an opinion, refuses to suggest an interpretatio…

That does help give me more confidence in pursuing therapy, thank you.

Sometimes I run through imaginary scenarios about how interactions with a therapist would go, and it always ends up with me worrying about them, feeling like I'm overwhelming them with my problems, causing them extra grief when their life probably sucks too, etc. It helps to know good licensed workers should be trained to help the patient avoid feeling like that. I probably would anyway, but that kind of maladaptive thinking is the exact reason I want to try therapy anyway...

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