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USWDS: The United States Web Design System

designsystem.digital.gov

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Re: USWDS: The United States Web Design System

#91
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied computer science and have been software engineer for almost a decade. Before college I came from a design background. I also went back to design school after I already became a senior engineer. One thing I've noticed is that art students have looked into pivoting into UI/UX design because it pays. There are skills and intuition that transfer, such as designing for visual hierarchy. In fact, there are even s…

I actually really hate material design in general. It's "okay" on Android, and that's the only place it works. The Material web design layout never feels good in the browser - it's floaty. Interactions don't ever feel "solid" - basically the experience is always like using a buggy webapp where you're thinking you need to open the dev panel to see if it's erroring silently. Try using any of Google's setting panels or…

I worked at Amazon, too. People look down on Amazon, especially relatively to Google. But Amazon had their priorities straight when it comes to frontend. I worked on the team that made shares UI widgets, and it was forking off of Bootstrap.

Yes, people may remember Amazon retail being bloated, still kind of is sometimes, but those are product design decisions separate from the ui components. AWS wise, there is just so many products and maybe not enough users / page where it doesn’t make enough business sense to invest more resources.

Actually, Amazon had the most practical designers I ever met. They were also closer to the metal in the terms of being considerate about CSS bloat.

> interactions don't ever feel "solid" - basically the experience is always like using a buggy webapp where you're thinking you need to open the dev panel to see if it's erroring silently

Funny you mentioned AWS. This is exactly the problem with the GCP web console, even though it had a better overall visual hierarchy than AWS.

Disclaimer: I also worked on the frontend for GCP

Re: USWDS: The United States Web Design System

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially the contrast/magic number discussion. It's crazy how many user interfaces these days blur design elements to where you can't tell were controls are. The recent trend to eliminate window title bars is particularly infuriating, but buttons that don't look like buttons because they blend into the background are another pet peeve - or have light gray on dark gray. Ugh! Contrast serves a purpose! Modern UX de…

It’s boring when UIs have a stark contrast; What makes light contrasts beautiful is rarity. Perhaps in the future, extremely elusive UIs with very faint variations will be the top of the design fashion after using cookies to know the user’s tolerance to light contrast. For example, today’s movies are pitch black because they want to upsell 5000:1 screens. The sole reason it didn’t happen to software yet is because we…

Yet UIs are too often services increasingly necessary to live and excel in life. So all these rare and beautiful designs keep out users with vision problems, or at minimum push them to use more tooling to work around that shit.

Re: USWDS: The United States Web Design System

#93
post #18

Anyone with any part in designing user interfaces seriously needs to commit their section on color to heart: https://designsystem.digital.gov/design-tokens/color/overvie... Especially the contrast/magic number discussion. It's crazy how many user interfaces these days blur design elements to where you can't tell were controls are. The recent trend to eliminate window title bars is particularly infuriating, but button…

> Especially the contrast/magic number discussion. It's crazy how many user interfaces these days blur design elements to where you can't tell were controls are. The recent trend to eliminate window title bars is particularly infuriating, but buttons that don't look like buttons because they blend into the background are another pet peeve - or have light gray on dark gray. Ugh! Contrast serves a purpose! Modern UX de…

Exactly,I seriously can't wait until our modern UIs are made illegal by a modification to the disabilities act. I'll probably throw a party.

Re: USWDS: The United States Web Design System

#95
post #15

Developers are an interesting bunch "Why does anyone use Bootstrap anymore?" and then goes and creates basically the exact same components again by hand. Seems like that same trend repeats every couple of years "[Popular library] is now outdated, let me just create an in-house clone or move to identical but trendy [Popular library]." To be clear I very much like the USWDS components, but they are mostly 1:1 with Boot…

Nope, you're not missing anything really, but I'm sure glad that not every website looks like a Bootstrap 3. I think these government ones are more about keeping a consistent style and look across departmental websites, than advertising a product for general use. In fact, I think the government would not take very kindly to hobbyists making official-looking websites serving a non-government agenda. Front-end isn't th…

> The basic template is the same

It’s obvious you are a tech person who did not study fashion design and don’t know what you’re taking about. No one would use the term template. There are silhouettes and there are patterns (that’s a technical term). There’s a reason Uniqlo is respected by fashion design students, but H&M / Zara is the bane of their existence, and that difference is pattern. Pattern, even more than fabric, is that difference between a $200 designer t-shirt and $5 from H&M. The layman will notice color, maybe a luxury logo, but the trained eye looks for pattern. Pretty much every MFA thesis is pushing the boundaries on pattern and silhouette among other things such as process, and that’s why the garments may appear outlandish. Every decade, a professional fashion designer comes with a distinct silhouette. Unlike students, it is more basic and rudimentary, yet no one has thought of it before. There was Alexander McQueen, now there is Demna Gsvalia, in between there is Raf Simons. Based on the way you’re describing things, I don’t expect you know who any of these people are. Yes, it’s fashion and doesn’t introduce any functional improvements, but the way you’re describing things makes fashion seem superfluous. It’s art yes, and maybe art is superfluous for you, but it’s weird to use analogies on a discipline you don’t really understand. It’s fine if you don’t care or don’t understand or don’t think fashion is important, but don’t think you know what fashion is simply because you wear clothing. I understand this as a naive and hand wavy analogy, but if I were to take it seriously then it’s quite offensive to suggest fashion is unnecessary. It’s the equivalent of a non technical MBA waxing up corporate talking points about Machine Learning or cryptography, or one of those San Francisco Uber drivers who mention their glory days as a tech executive during the Dotcom bubble, but goes in a circle of buzzwords when you ask them about the technical details.

> you can have a totally bespoke and crazy item of clothing made for you by a designer

This reflects your preconceived notions that there is Costco, and then fashion = couturiers. This is not 19th century Paris nor some developing country where rich people go to a local tailor who has a range of fabric in house and makes clothing from scratch.

First, if people are seeking a specific “designer”, they’re going to seek out motifs or a particular style of the designer. At the same time, the designer has their specific approach, and so this is not infinite possibilities of bespokeness.

There’s also nuanced distinction between tailors, designers, couturier, atelier craftspeople, pattern makers, creative director. What you think of “designer” is most likely a creative director at the helm of a fashion label. These people’s skills are management, understanding industry trends, strategically positioning their brand given budget/limited resources, deciding what the art direction for advertising should be, managing / taking risks. Nowadays many of them don’t even design or are capable of working with the garments. It’s the difference between a movie producer and a director of photography. For sufficiently small firms, they might be the same person, but at any sufficiently large project, especially with how much money is involved in fashion, it’s not. These are different roles in the industry, and there are overlap and people can change roles, but most of the time people can’t. It’s like thinking all engineers, or all engineers in tech ( SRE vs SWE), or even all software engineers are interchangeable. In Japan, I see management try to teach designers to become software engineers because to them all people work with computers are equivalent.

> Clothing was also a problem solved

It’s not a solved problem. New fabrics are being developed. Mount Everest, high altitude climbing, winter sports is becoming easier over the decade in part to innovation in clothing and wearables.

Then there is athleisure wear, athletic wear. Fashion is symbiotic with functional improvements. Cowboywear were fashion but also function.

> nice shoes

Just because the shoes are nice looking doesn’t mean there aren’t improvements in comfortability, and function. Allbirds which is liked among the HackerNews crowd just IPO’d in the last year.

Moving past how misunderstood the analogy is, you’re not seeing the value in brand identity and uniqueness. Coca Cola is mostly branding.

Re: USWDS: The United States Web Design System

#96
post #18

Anyone with any part in designing user interfaces seriously needs to commit their section on color to heart: https://designsystem.digital.gov/design-tokens/color/overvie... Especially the contrast/magic number discussion. It's crazy how many user interfaces these days blur design elements to where you can't tell were controls are. The recent trend to eliminate window title bars is particularly infuriating, but button…

> Especially the contrast/magic number discussion Speaking about accessibility, who came up with that name "magic number"? It's already an overloaded term with multiple meanings and even has one negative one (for constants that has seemingly "magic" meaning or not a fully understood one). Even something like "contrast ratio" would be immediate to come up with, and much better name as it actually says something on the…

You're forgetting two basic concepts: 1)Naming things is hard, 2)Nothing more permanent than a temporary solution. In this case, both are at play.

Re: USWDS: The United States Web Design System

#97
post #18

Anyone with any part in designing user interfaces seriously needs to commit their section on color to heart: https://designsystem.digital.gov/design-tokens/color/overvie... Especially the contrast/magic number discussion. It's crazy how many user interfaces these days blur design elements to where you can't tell were controls are. The recent trend to eliminate window title bars is particularly infuriating, but button…

Even basic things like window borders, our Windows 10 desktops at work don’t have them and MS app window backgrounds are white. If several windows are overlapped and there’s a small window in the middle somewhere, good luck trying to find the edges to move it. It’s just a sea of white with text scattered about.

Re: USWDS: The United States Web Design System

#98
post #15

Developers are an interesting bunch "Why does anyone use Bootstrap anymore?" and then goes and creates basically the exact same components again by hand. Seems like that same trend repeats every couple of years "[Popular library] is now outdated, let me just create an in-house clone or move to identical but trendy [Popular library]." To be clear I very much like the USWDS components, but they are mostly 1:1 with Boot…

Nope, you're not missing anything really, but I'm sure glad that not every website looks like a Bootstrap 3. I think these government ones are more about keeping a consistent style and look across departmental websites, than advertising a product for general use. In fact, I think the government would not take very kindly to hobbyists making official-looking websites serving a non-government agenda. Front-end isn't th…

> So, naturally, given what may be an unconscious existential dread that one day the world may realise that front-end is more or less solved, front-end developers like to make sure that there's always something new to do, rather than admit that a problem is more or less solved.

Can you really not think of one thing that you couldn't do in the frontend 10 years ago that you can do today? Or that is significantly easier to do today than it used to be? Nothing new or novel or of value has emerged lately? I understand that your comment was intended to be inflammatory, but come on. Use your brain.

Re: USWDS: The United States Web Design System

#99
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, you're not missing anything really, but I'm sure glad that not every website looks like a Bootstrap 3. I think these government ones are more about keeping a consistent style and look across departmental websites, than advertising a product for general use. In fact, I think the government would not take very kindly to hobbyists making official-looking websites serving a non-government agenda. Front-end isn't th…

> So, naturally, given what may be an unconscious existential dread that one day the world may realise that front-end is more or less solved, front-end developers like to make sure that there's always something new to do, rather than admit that a problem is more or less solved. Can you really not think of one thing that you couldn't do in the frontend 10 years ago that you can do today? Or that is significantly easie…

It was actually intended as a harmless joke. I spend most of my time on front-end development myself, these days.

Re: USWDS: The United States Web Design System

#100
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, you're not missing anything really, but I'm sure glad that not every website looks like a Bootstrap 3. I think these government ones are more about keeping a consistent style and look across departmental websites, than advertising a product for general use. In fact, I think the government would not take very kindly to hobbyists making official-looking websites serving a non-government agenda. Front-end isn't th…

> The basic template is the same It’s obvious you are a tech person who did not study fashion design and don’t know what you’re taking about. No one would use the term template. There are silhouettes and there are patterns (that’s a technical term). There’s a reason Uniqlo is respected by fashion design students, but H&M / Zara is the bane of their existence, and that difference is pattern. Pattern, even more than fa…

As I said to another respondent, my post was tongue-in-cheek. I meant no offense to anyone.
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