Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#71

Post by Udo » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:42 PM UTC

cbs wrote: post #49

Udo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, what an asshole. Saying that the world will be a better place after someone dies should be reserved for mass murderers and lobbyists - it's a harsh and inappropriate statement about a leading industry figure, whether you agree with that figure or not. For example, I violently disagree with RMS on a lot of things, but I still believe he is a visionary, and Open Source is a valuable concept that will always be…

>Saying that the world will be a better place after someone dies should be reserved for mass murderers and lobbyists Yep. Certainly not for people that hire lobbyists though. Nothing wrong with paying people to do something despicable, its not like you're actually doing it yourself.

Look, I don't advocate that Jobs was a saint, far from it actually. But I don't think the world will be a better place without him either. So yeah, I believe people like RMS are despicable for being jubilant about another person's demise and that won't change - no matter how hostile or snarky you lot are about it.

Edit: obviously, I should not have used hyperbole to imply that whenever a lobbyist dies, the world is a better place. That was rather stupid of me. I do believe the world would gain something if lobbyism didn't exist though. So if Steve Jobs had done nothing else in his life but paying lobbyists...

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#72

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:53 PM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #66

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone died though. The polite thing to do would probably be to say nothing at all ...

Why should people be stifled just because somebody died? What exactly are we concerned about? Steve Jobs becoming disgruntled, rising from his grave, and sucking the blood of virgins during the night? This "dead people are off limits" thing is a relic from the superstitious dark ages. If we can praise the actions of dead people, we can criticize them too.

[deleted]

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#73

Post by Toady » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:55 PM UTC

flarg wrote: post #33

Stallman is consistent and vastly intelligent and whilst his comments can be seen as insensitive he is quite correct that Steve Jobs did suppress software freedom. We don't go to Stallman for sensitivity (you're a dolt if you do), we go to him for the truth, no matter how painful. We can all do with that sometimes - http://www.skepticblog.org/2011/10/06/steve-jobs-succumbs-to...

Equating the iPhone to a "jail" is goofy political hyperbole. Normal people don't even view software in that context. It's just a piece of hardware and software they choose to use or not use.

Stallman represents the strain of computer nerds who want to view their hobby as the bold movement of a freedom fighter. They are out-of-touch and don't understand what normal people think and feel. They want their nerd playground to remain in place because it's a world they have control in.

To paraphrase you, it's sad but true.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#74

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 5:03 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #71

cbs wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Saying that the world will be a better place after someone dies should be reserved for mass murderers and lobbyists Yep. Certainly not for people that hire lobbyists though. Nothing wrong with paying people to do something despicable, its not like you're actually doing it yourself.

Look, I don't advocate that Jobs was a saint, far from it actually. But I don't think the world will be a better place without him either. So yeah, I believe people like RMS are despicable for being jubilant about another person's demise and that won't change - no matter how hostile or snarky you lot are about it. Edit: obviously, I should not have used hyperbole to imply that whenever a lobbyist dies, the world is a…

[deleted]

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#75

Post by bruceboughton » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 5:06 PM UTC

RexRollman wrote: post #51

api wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, the market has spoken, and here's why: Only technology monarchism has been able to deliver a good user experience. The organized chaos of OSS has delivered excellent technology but a piss-poor user experience by comparison. I can't imagine using Linux as anything other than a web-netbook without having a thorough understanding of it, and the UI still blows by comparison with anything by Apple. Microsoft's UI…

When it comes to computing, it seems to me that most people would rather have a pretty prison than freedom.

"pretty prison" is a nonsense term. For millions and millions of people, OS X and iOS and the relevant hardware are not prisons--they give them the freedom of the Internet, of usable software and of easy to use hardware to do what they want to do. Without commercial computing vendors, many people wouldn't be able to use a computer and would be a lot less free.

Freedom for 0.1% does not trump freedom for the masses and RMS is just engaging in shameless self-promotion.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#76

Post by nxn » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 5:08 PM UTC

"We can only hope his successors, as they attempt to carry on his legacy, will be less effective."

Or perhaps the hope should be to make more "effective" free software instead of having ill wishes towards your competitors. I mean, Stallman can really preach about free software all he wants, but most people in the consumer world probably wont turn down a superior closed source product based on that merit alone. The biggest factor in deciding winners or losers here is the quality of the products being created by the two methodologies, and I am yet to be convinced that the free software approach consistently creates the better product.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#77

Post by prodigal_erik » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 5:08 PM UTC

bluekeybox wrote: post #44

ramanujan wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, all respect to Stallman for writing Emacs and the GNU toolchain. Among technologists he's clearly one of the few figures on par with Jobs. Indeed, he's also personally a difficult figure and a bit of a totalitarian about his craft, much like Jobs himself. [Though I don't think Jobs would ever publicly emit something like Stallman's "eulogy".] Where Stallman falls short is in supposing that open, hackable system…

more of a setback for the free software movement than anything Microsoft ever did. Of course RMS would say something like this. Microsoft's business practices gave RMS followers; Steve Jobs took them away. As any RMS-style self-proclaimed bearded prophet/politician/priest/father-figure knows, it's never been about making things but about gaining followers. The beard is not ironic.

Stallman has never left any room for doubt that his motives are genuine. It's not about followers. There's no shortage of people telling him how to moderate his message to attract more, yet he won't do it. I think this is another thing people are going to grudgingly acknowledge he was right about, after a decade or two—but that might have happened more quickly if not for the harsh delivery.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#78

Post by jsavimbi » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 5:23 PM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #66

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone died though. The polite thing to do would probably be to say nothing at all ...

Why should people be stifled just because somebody died? What exactly are we concerned about? Steve Jobs becoming disgruntled, rising from his grave, and sucking the blood of virgins during the night? This "dead people are off limits" thing is a relic from the superstitious dark ages. If we can praise the actions of dead people, we can criticize them too.

Because people have feelings.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#79

Post by aespinoza » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 5:32 PM UTC

iamjustlooking wrote: post #50

rdouble wrote: post #39

Did anyone expect him to say something different? It's the first time I've seen his political blog. I'm always disheartened when I find out guys who used to do cool stuff now just spend their days tweeting or blogging about politics. It's like visiting your grandpa who used to do woodworking and finding out he now just watches Fox News all day.

> Did anyone expect him to say something different? He could have said nothing at all.

I agree. But the fact is Mr. Stallman is more prone to choose to make really bad remarks. Silence is something he needs to practice more.

I used to admire him a lot, but he is really not here anymore, he lives in a place far far away from reality.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#80

Post by burgerbrain » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 5:43 PM UTC

jsavimbi wrote: post #78

burgerbrain wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should people be stifled just because somebody died? What exactly are we concerned about? Steve Jobs becoming disgruntled, rising from his grave, and sucking the blood of virgins during the night? This "dead people are off limits" thing is a relic from the superstitious dark ages. If we can praise the actions of dead people, we can criticize them too.

Because people have feelings.

Why should it hurt anybodies feelings to point out that Steve Jobs wasn't all fairy dust and benevolence? This need to whitewash people when they die is truly bizarre.