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$625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

roninblockchain.substack.com

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Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#401
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't always reverse the transaction in regular financial world. It is typically possible if all parties involved act in good faith, and often possible in other cases too, if you act fast, or the bad faith actor is less than competent. However, this is not always the case. Imagine the following scenario: bank A sends $100M to bank B, which then sends it to bank C. By "reversing" the A->B transaction, all you're d…

Isn't the obvious solution to also reverse the transfer from Bank B to Bank C? If multi-hop transfers are treated as irreversible, then it creates an incentive for fraudulent sellers to collect all payments through multiple hops. If instead fraudulent transactions may be reversed at the first payment processor, the payment processor then has a financial incentive to make sure that they only pass through valid transac…

> If instead fraudulent transactions may be reversed at the first payment processor, the payment processor then has a financial incentive to make sure that they only pass through valid transactions.

Yes, but it's only one of the incentives they're facing. Another one is to provide useful and convenient service to its customers.

Try to think more about the example I provided. The account in bank A is victim's, while accounts in banks B and C are owned by the fraudster. The transfer from A to B is fraudulent, but the transfer from B to C is perfectly legitimate as far as B bank knows: the name on the destination account in bank C might even be exactly the same as in bank B, so why would bank B have any suspicions? At best, it could reject incoming transfer from bank A if it had suspicions (which, by the way, why would it have?). Would you want to be a customer of a bank that can just reject incoming transfers, so that you have trouble getting paid?

Finally, consider that bank C might then allow the fraudster to withdraw the proceeds in cash. Bank C might be foreign, and B communicates with it through SWIFT, and might simply refuse reversing the transaction, or again might already have sent the funds to bank D in yet another country. The point is that you cannot treat regular financial transactions as reversible either. They might be reversible sometimes, especially if everyone involved acts in good faith, but there is no guarantee.

> In an analogous situation, suppose I go to a physical store and buy a TV, only to find that it doesn't turn on. I have the right to return it to the same store that I bought it from, and to receive a full refund.

That's not really an analogous situation. Here's what would be closer: imagine you order a specialty TV online from China. The retailer A orders a company B that manages it warehouse to pack it on a truck of company C that specializes in LTL, which then ships it to company D which coalesces LTL freight into packed containers, then puts on containers owned by a shipping company E, which ships them across the Pacific to port authority F, then we have a shipping company in G in states, another truck company H to ship it to train yard H that gets it to LTL company I's warehouse, which then is passed on to courier company J, an independent subcontractor K of which finally gets it to your front door. Then your TV doesn't work, and you want to return it.

Will you try to unravel the chain back the same way it arrived? Are you going to find the subcontractor K, and have him ship it back to courier company J, to send it back to the LTL company K etc? No, you'll go straight for the original retailer. Similarly, with financial fraud, you'd need to go straight for the fraudster.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#402
post #47

In a system run by people, the transaction could be reversed, traced, and the culprits eventually brought to justice. In a system run by algorithms, designed to avoid oversight by people (governments), there is no such powers. There's no reversal. There's no checking the name on the account the transfer was to. It's just gone. I do not understand why people who have legal intentions would want to be part of the crypt…

Because there are people in the world who can wake up and have lost all money they had deposited in a bank. There are people who have to pay 20% transfer fees to move money overseas. There are people who don't have the ability to open a bank account. There are people who can lose all their banked money if their government doesn't like them. The first world doesn't have these problems. Crypto is a bigger play than 'ge…

> The first world doesn't have these problems.

… but a lot of first-world guys are trying to get rich by selling systems which costs too much even for first-world users and doesn't solve those problems. If you live somewhere where your government will seize your assets, cryptocurrency won't help your physical assets and will only help anything else to the extent that you aren't worried about jail or worse for you or your family. You can't fix that class of problems with technology and it seems rather heartless to use those people's plight as a marketing tactic for a system primarily used by affluent people for speculation & money laundering.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#403

This is the kind of pain that comes from trusting scammers and nincompoops about unworkable blockchain "scalability" fixes. Here's the sequence. Those dumb enough to ignore it are doomed to repeat the pattern. I'm probably getting some details wrong in this Rube Goldberg scheme, so feel free to correct. 1. Citing "Ethereum network congestion," Axie Infinity announces an ethereum side chain, Ronin.[1] 2. Ronin was a c…

Is bitcoin's lighting network any different? Just curious

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#404
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't always reverse the transaction in regular financial world. It is typically possible if all parties involved act in good faith, and often possible in other cases too, if you act fast, or the bad faith actor is less than competent. However, this is not always the case. Imagine the following scenario: bank A sends $100M to bank B, which then sends it to bank C. By "reversing" the A->B transaction, all you're d…

The shifting of the goalposts is incredible. Yes, there are flaws in the real world financial system as well. Yet, we’ve heard of more of these scams in years of crypto than in decades and centuries of banking. And no one has still provided an explanation of why crypto is better than the established working system other than “it’s decentralized” except as we find repeatedly, it’s not decentralized.

It's not really goalpost shifting - thieves in countries without extradition treaties and with justice systems that don't care are a serious ongoing problem with the existing banking system, and those transactions are not in general reversable. Hell, someone managed to steal a substantial sum of money from Bangladesh's central bank and almost none of it could be recovered. The only reason they didn't manage to rob all 1 billion dollars of the central bank's reserves was a random false positiver in some AML check.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company that uses blockchain technology for their game contacting authorities A group of people that aspire for blockchain technology to fulfill an ideological goal You conflated both of those people as the same

Isn't that company also trying to fulfill the same ideological goal? Their twitter even says "Freedom for gamers". Looks exactly the same type of bs to me.

No, they're not.

Many organizations use blockchain technology to offload the need to develop the account model, user state management, and accounting, lowers overhead costs for some kinds of ventures as well as being trendy which is able to get an audience very quickly. This inherently comes with some aspects of less-centralization (in case you or someone passing by is allergic to the word "decentralization"), there isn't any ideology to adopt with that, its just a matter of reality. In Axie's case, gamers are able to resell assets they've acquired without the Axie platform or opinion of company. It fulfills a market interest and that's it. Many people are also making enough money to support themselves by playing/grinding/joining guilds, this is also an aspiration form of freedom.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#406
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>None of this is new. The Bitcoin "block size war" was fought over this very point. Unworkable scaling schemes are going to end in disaster with no fallback, and no recourse for those who lose money. You end up with nothing, and will be sad. I don't see the parallel to 'the Bitcoin "block size war"', though? The solution on either side (bigger blocks, lightning network) doesn't require trusting some party to handle t…

I think their point is that at some block size, it's no longer feasible for most people to run their own node to verify the blockchain, and you start relying on a client-server model instead of a peer to peer model.

Yes, interestingly with Ethereum it's not the individual block size that's holding it back (they're around 80kb), it's the protected size of all blocks for people running validator nodes. You don't want to require node operators to have 100TB in SSD storage because your blocks all pile up too quickly (this is one of the main concerns about Avalanche scaling).

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#408
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Including actually having the money in your wallet!

not your keys, not your crypto :) your crypto won't get stolen if you have good opsec

ha ha opsec sounds so cool

but its actually the opposite of civilization lol not your kek not your jejeje

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#409

This is the kind of pain that comes from trusting scammers and nincompoops about unworkable blockchain "scalability" fixes. Here's the sequence. Those dumb enough to ignore it are doomed to repeat the pattern. I'm probably getting some details wrong in this Rube Goldberg scheme, so feel free to correct. 1. Citing "Ethereum network congestion," Axie Infinity announces an ethereum side chain, Ronin.[1] 2. Ronin was a c…

This is exactly why crypto is such a disaster. Every week there is yet another scam where people losing their money. The feedback from crypto enthusiasts is well look at those idiots for putting their money into some scheme or you are not smart enough use this thing. Look "nobody" understands what you are talking about. These financial systems are inscrutable and the problem is getting worse. You are building systems that are ruining peoples lives and making things worse for everyone. Please think about what you are doing and create system of value and meaning which improves humankind.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when it comes to banking, random checking accounts are hacked into very rarely. to the point that in USA the FDIC is protecting your account up to $250,000. I don't recall last time seeing news on someone's bank account being hacked and drained, if anything its mostly family fraud. also there are all sorts of checks when you try to wire or withdraw more than $10,000, not to mention wire hundreds of millions. Such tra…

> I don't recall last time seeing news on someone's bank account being hacked and drained, if anything its mostly family fraud. Anecdote time. My wife and I have a shared checking account that got hacked and drained. First her debit card got skimmed. Then the perp called USAA a half dozen times claiming to be her and asking for account credentials. Finally they got a helpful account rep to reset the password, disable…

This is one reason to keep at least some accounts with a large national bank or credit union. If you need to prove your identity or deal with a lost card while traveling you can at least walk into a physical branch and talk to a manager.
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