Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#51

Post by RexRollman » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:11 PM UTC

api wrote: post #48

yesreally wrote: post #15

For those that are kneejerkingly chastising Stallman, understand his point of view. OS X and iOS are not free, and Apple led by Jobs changed the way that people thought about installing Applications on desktop operating systems as something that requires manufacturer approval (App Store), which led the way for others like Intel to make AppUp, etc. This restricts what the user has access to install is more of a setbac…

And yet, the market has spoken, and here's why: Only technology monarchism has been able to deliver a good user experience. The organized chaos of OSS has delivered excellent technology but a piss-poor user experience by comparison. I can't imagine using Linux as anything other than a web-netbook without having a thorough understanding of it, and the UI still blows by comparison with anything by Apple. Microsoft's UI…

When it comes to computing, it seems to me that most people would rather have a pretty prison than freedom.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#52

Post by burgerbrain » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:13 PM UTC

api wrote: post #48

yesreally wrote: post #15

For those that are kneejerkingly chastising Stallman, understand his point of view. OS X and iOS are not free, and Apple led by Jobs changed the way that people thought about installing Applications on desktop operating systems as something that requires manufacturer approval (App Store), which led the way for others like Intel to make AppUp, etc. This restricts what the user has access to install is more of a setbac…

And yet, the market has spoken, and here's why: Only technology monarchism has been able to deliver a good user experience. The organized chaos of OSS has delivered excellent technology but a piss-poor user experience by comparison. I can't imagine using Linux as anything other than a web-netbook without having a thorough understanding of it, and the UI still blows by comparison with anything by Apple. Microsoft's UI…

Stallman doesn't need market approval.

If you are a shareholder it is a legitimate point, but the FSF's concerns are far deeper.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#53

Post by marshray » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:14 PM UTC

Oh come on, grow a spine people. Quit whining about 'insensitive'. Just because you die doesn't give you a free pass from criticism for more than about 24 hours, and most people don't even get that much.

Stallman is right. Computer-as-a-jail is Jobs' legacy and I too hope it dies with him.

vvv Edit vvv

Look at it this way: Jobs and Apple did truly amazing things in the usability department. For that they should be rightly praised.

But none of that requires jailed computing. Most of that happened before the lockdown got underway in earnest with the iPhone.

It would be a total tragedy if all the good and the bad concepts got conflated here.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#54

Post by cvander » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:15 PM UTC

iamjustlooking wrote: post #50

rdouble wrote: post #39

Did anyone expect him to say something different? It's the first time I've seen his political blog. I'm always disheartened when I find out guys who used to do cool stuff now just spend their days tweeting or blogging about politics. It's like visiting your grandpa who used to do woodworking and finding out he now just watches Fox News all day.

> Did anyone expect him to say something different? He could have said nothing at all.

He had the opportunity to remain silent for sure.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#55

Post by bstewartnyc » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:15 PM UTC

Steve Jobs created products that people love and are more than willing to pay for, even wait in long lines in the rain for. Even during the slowest economy the Apple store at my local mall is filled with life. Stallman loves his "freedom" - well Steve Jobs was free to create a profitable company and do it his own way, apparently Stallman would like to do away with such freedoms.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#56

Post by Alex3917 » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:16 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #47

Stallman is as clueless about communication as ever. That’s no way to convince people.

"That’s no way to convince people."

Why is convincing people the be-all and end-all of communication? Doesn't just being right count for something?

Obviously you need a lot of people who are willing to do the work of convincing folks, but you also need other people who are willing to be right whether it's popular or not. Every book I have ever read on selling change within organizations says that you need to start by talking with the people who are the most receptive to new ideas, regardless of where they are in the hierarchy.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#57

Post by burgerbrain » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:18 PM UTC

timmyd wrote: post #26

It's interesting - I question why Stallman felt the need to say anything. Have some respect in death - and even if he chooses to ignorantly portray himself as an arse by continuing to poor criticism on someone 1 day after their death - I put this to you. If Stallmans "dream" of "everythings free" truly prevailed. Most of the technology that we use would never have been invented anyway. The capitalist nature of societ…

There is nothing about death that demands respect. Anyone can do it, and eventually we all will do it.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#58

Post by masklinn » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:18 PM UTC

ramanujan wrote: post #31

yesreally wrote: post #15

For those that are kneejerkingly chastising Stallman, understand his point of view. OS X and iOS are not free, and Apple led by Jobs changed the way that people thought about installing Applications on desktop operating systems as something that requires manufacturer approval (App Store), which led the way for others like Intel to make AppUp, etc. This restricts what the user has access to install is more of a setbac…

Look, all respect to Stallman for writing Emacs and the GNU toolchain. Among technologists he's clearly one of the few figures on par with Jobs. Indeed, he's also personally a difficult figure and a bit of a totalitarian about his craft, much like Jobs himself. [Though I don't think Jobs would ever publicly emit something like Stallman's "eulogy".] Where Stallman falls short is in supposing that open, hackable system…

> Where Stallman falls short is in supposing that open, hackable systems are an unmitigated good. "Just works" and "highly configurable" are often antonyms, rather than synonyms.

It's not really about "good". As far as Stallman is concerned, potential user freedom simply trumps everything else, including the ability to actually use a device of piece of software due to technical incompetence.

And I respect the man, not necessarily because I agree with him but because he's never (as far as I know) hurt anything but feelings (you've got to admit the guy is not exactly diplomat material) and he actually walks the walk (how many "open-source rha rha" zealots do you see trying their damnest to use open-source and free everything — including hardware — even if it limits their choices and the intrinsic quality of what they end up with? RMS does)

> So: iOS is not a setback for the free software movement. In the long term it's a massive boost in the arm.

You're doing yourself a disservice by thinking Stallman cares about software that much. Non-free hardware is just as big (if not even bigger) a deal for him, and on that point Apple is an even bigger sticking point than on software: non-serviceable, non-replaceable devices galore (the Mac side has gotten better but the devices side has not), non-free everything, generally in support of more semi-proprietary to proprietary (and freedom-restricting, such as DRM and "trusted") technologies, ...

The iPhone and iPad, and their popularity, only make things worse as far as RMS is concerned, as they flood the world with devices neither free in hardware nor in software and beholden to the "mothership". Likewise, I don't think RMS sees anything cloud with a teary eye for any reason than the loss of user freedom it translates into for him.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#59

Post by burgerbrain » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:19 PM UTC

diegogomes wrote: post #12

I wonder why some people still hear a guy who uses email to access the internet.

Because he still makes good points.

Judge the value of statements on their merit, not on how their writer surfs the web.

I can't believe I actually need to say that.

Re: Richard Stallman on Steve Jobs

#60

Post by loumf » Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 4:20 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #47

Stallman is as clueless about communication as ever. That’s no way to convince people.

I don't think Stallman cares about convincing -- his role is to be an uncompromising extremist, which he does quite well.

In any movement, you need people to set the goalpost so far away that others can seem reasonable by comparison. They serve a purpose to the movement, but they themselves risk being ostracized and marginalized.

On the facts, I think he's wrong about Jobs -- Apple has done a lot to make it possible for free alternatives of some important software to exist. What they are doing to make the web (HTML5) a reasonable alternative to Flash is almost enough. In fact, closing iOS to Flash is the main reason that it's happening.