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$625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

roninblockchain.substack.com

111–120 of 761 posts

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#111
post #91
post #47

In a system run by people, the transaction could be reversed, traced, and the culprits eventually brought to justice. In a system run by algorithms, designed to avoid oversight by people (governments), there is no such powers. There's no reversal. There's no checking the name on the account the transfer was to. It's just gone. I do not understand why people who have legal intentions would want to be part of the crypt…

Arguably it's the same risk as holding paper notes right? If I steal your life savings from under your mattress, there isn't necessarily anything to trace it back to me. However, there is a physical limit, pretty damn hard to run off with half a billion worth of paper notes.

It isn't even just the limits of the notes themselves. Physical theft has to be done on location. You have to steal the money and get away as far as possible as quickly as possible. And there are local laws and police equipped to go after you.

How do you deal with it when the money could be in the pockets of an Eastern European teenager with one script run?

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#112
post #69

Question for the legal-minded folk here. Is this "theft" illegal in the criminal sense? It's exploiting an unintended hole in software, but it's technically following the smart contract faithfully, albeit against the better intentions of its author(s). Has a smart contract case like this been litigated before? It brings to mind comparable things that have happened in the financial services world, where one party insi…

I don't believe this has been tested in the courts.

But I don't see much difficulty in convincing a court that this fits the definition of theft in some jurisdictions.

In the UK: "Theft is defined by section 1 of the 1968 Act as dishonestly appropriating property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it."

A brief explanation of each of those terms is given, and I don't see any particular problems related to this being cryptocurrency. The point that "smart contracts allow what the code says and nothing else matters" does not fit with the dishonesty interpretation that "The owner would agree to their taking it if they knew about it".

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/theft-act-offences

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#113
post #91
post #47

In a system run by people, the transaction could be reversed, traced, and the culprits eventually brought to justice. In a system run by algorithms, designed to avoid oversight by people (governments), there is no such powers. There's no reversal. There's no checking the name on the account the transfer was to. It's just gone. I do not understand why people who have legal intentions would want to be part of the crypt…

Arguably it's the same risk as holding paper notes right? If I steal your life savings from under your mattress, there isn't necessarily anything to trace it back to me. However, there is a physical limit, pretty damn hard to run off with half a billion worth of paper notes.

parent is talking about the financial system run by algorithms designed to evade sanctions and regulation, not being your own bank.

You absolutely can keep millions under your mattress and some do when they cannot launder it but it would be up to you to reverse the transaction in a forced wealth transfer vs the bank who can simply trace or even reverse a fraudulent transaction.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#114
post #69

Question for the legal-minded folk here. Is this "theft" illegal in the criminal sense? It's exploiting an unintended hole in software, but it's technically following the smart contract faithfully, albeit against the better intentions of its author(s). Has a smart contract case like this been litigated before? It brings to mind comparable things that have happened in the financial services world, where one party insi…

If code is law this is perfectly legal.

I suppose in the real world intent would matter a lot.

That is exactly the reason why "code is law" is such an absurd concept. A piece of code alone will never be able to tell you what its initial intention was.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#115
post #91
post #47

In a system run by people, the transaction could be reversed, traced, and the culprits eventually brought to justice. In a system run by algorithms, designed to avoid oversight by people (governments), there is no such powers. There's no reversal. There's no checking the name on the account the transfer was to. It's just gone. I do not understand why people who have legal intentions would want to be part of the crypt…

Arguably it's the same risk as holding paper notes right? If I steal your life savings from under your mattress, there isn't necessarily anything to trace it back to me. However, there is a physical limit, pretty damn hard to run off with half a billion worth of paper notes.

Why did you equally conflate the risks then immediately back peddle and say "physically stealing is harder i guess"?

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your threshold? Who decided what is "not legitimate" activity? Clearly in this case the money was spent using the keys that were allocated to be able to control the money, what process overrides that?

I mean we have an answer to that, it's called the law, and its worked since 1750BC. [edit] This guy, Hammurabi - king of the First Babylonian Dynasty - faced a similar quandary, so there's some prior art. Disputes under the law are resolved in court.

Courts and the legal system are centralized authority, not sure they are compatible with the crypto vision.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#117
post #74
post #31

I'm out of the loop and trying to understand - people lent over half a billion dollars of their 'real' fake money (ETH) to a game studio so they could transact on the studio's sidechain because gas fees are prohibitively expensive on ETH, and then the game studio got hacked and lost it all? How was this ever going to end any other way? Imagine how preposterous the idea of storing $650mm in USD in a random game studio…

> Imagine how preposterous the idea of storing $650mm in USD in a random game studio's checking account would be. But it's decentralized. (Do the same hand movement as if saying "It's got electrolytes")

Let's just call the bank and see if ...

* It's decentralized *

Oh, crap.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#119

Echoes of Mt Gox: when something meant to be a much smaller operation (such as a place to trade Magic:The Gathering cards) suddenly finds itself playing a much bigger game. It's like you agreed to temporarily store the Fort Knox gold reserves in your spare room, but still have the same ordinary lock on the front door.

> Fort Knox gold reserves in your spare room

What do you mean a wooden safe isn't good enough?!

Joke aside. This is the reality we live in. Almost makes heist movies pale in comparison. The failed Die Hard heist was planned in order to steal $640M.

I wonder how long until Hollywood will start making movies about these hacks.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#120
post #88
post #31

I'm out of the loop and trying to understand - people lent over half a billion dollars of their 'real' fake money (ETH) to a game studio so they could transact on the studio's sidechain because gas fees are prohibitively expensive on ETH, and then the game studio got hacked and lost it all? How was this ever going to end any other way? Imagine how preposterous the idea of storing $650mm in USD in a random game studio…

Giving $650mm in USD to a random company is still infinitely safer than doing so with crypto. If a regulated bank claims they got hacked and lost that amount, there are a slew of federal and state laws and agencies in place to investigate it. With crypto, it could very well be in the wallet of the CEO or IT guy and no one would know.

Cryptocurrency theft is illegal and the US government does investigate and prosecute it.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/feb/14/us-bitcoin-case-...

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