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Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

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Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#41

Post by Trasmatta »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #9
Trasmatta wrote: post #2

Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. It seems in many cases to be correlated with anxiety and depression. It can be difficult for people with high levels of empathy to recognize the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others. As a kid I was highly empathetic, and it's something I've struggled with my entire life. It never really felt li…

I would argue that it's a disadvantage only from the self-centered perspective that modern society encourages us to cultivate. Empathy is an incredibly useful tool for humans that exist as part of a community, but our societies are structured to benefit those who seek to maximally exploit others, our role models are sociopaths, and the cultural narrative is that our only value is either in being them or being useful…

It can be an advantage when it's been tuned and trained properly. When it hasn't been, it mostly just leads to additional pain for the empathetic person, and eventual withdrawal.

Parents need to be taught how to recognize children that are highly empathetic, and given the tools to teach them to train and deal with that aspect of themselves. Otherwise they'll experience great emotional pain in their lives without any of the tools they need to cope with it. That can have a rebound effect, leading to emotional numbing and social withdrawal.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#42

Post by jlokier »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #7
Trasmatta wrote: post #2

Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. It seems in many cases to be correlated with anxiety and depression. It can be difficult for people with high levels of empathy to recognize the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others. As a kid I was highly empathetic, and it's something I've struggled with my entire life. It never really felt li…

Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control. Empathy is an incredible virtue, but it must be disciplined. I don't know enough neuroscience to know what the "right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex" is exactly but I know that you can over-ride/master it with reason and discipline. So I think there's something more to people allowing their better nature to slip under stress than simple brain chemicals. A colone…

> you to retain dignity, self-sacrifice, and thinking about _them_ more than ever

> That's precisely the time when you need to dig deep and let _reason_ take the lead

I would say when self-sacrifice, thinking of others first is what's called for, that's actually empathy leading, at its most high-functioning.

Empathy is taking the lead, but it's somehow a deeper kind, qualitatively distinct from day to day sympathy and personality. Sometimes a person you thought was rather heartless day to day, turns out to care for their buddies in such a moment, and you don't forget their actions.

Of course it is empathy in concert with reason. Reason, intuition, skill, knowledge - and that measured mind - are all required in difficult situations, but without empathy would often lead to self-preservation mode.

> deep down they are actually masters of the empathy they've carefully hidden.

I like this. Yeah, that's what I mean.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#44

Post by allmodelsRwrong »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #29
tartoran wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Empathy is great for the society, a burden for the individual. Very empathetic people have a hard time minding their own path in life for they get caught in the suffering of others. Regardless of setbacks and disilussionments, empathetic people feel good when helping others.

> Empathy is great for the society, a burden for the individual. But society is good for the individual, so supporting that society that supports them is mutually beneficial.

This chain of comments reminds of what I read in a paper regarding multilevel group selection, namely: "Selfishness beats altruism within groups. Altruistic groups beat selfish groups". Though there is a bit of controversy around that if I remember correctly.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#45

Post by [deleted] »

catchclose8919 wrote: post #21
mountainriver wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel the same way as you, and I had to withdrawal as a child and now have mental disorders in the spectrum of schizophrenia. So anecdotally, I imagine that’s correct. The loss of boundaries thing is very real, I know there are some upsides to it but most days it’s hard to not feel like a curse

Just FYI "schizoid personality +/- disorder" has absolutely nothing to do with (the spectrum of) schizophrenia, they're about different things on different systems on different axes etc. And yeah, psychologist REALLY suck at naming things! And one of the reason to avoid ever discussing about "schizoid personality" with people who aren't trained psychologists since they're 90% likely to think you're talking about the…

[deleted]

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#46

Post by PragmaticPulp »

srcreigh wrote: post #27

> To reach this conclusion, researchers asked the participants to make donations before they were asked to undertake a stressful task; they were asked to donate things again after the task was over. While people who were found to have high empathy donated more than the others did before undergoing the stressful task, their charitability declined sharply afterward. Isn’t asking for 2 unexpected donations in short succ…

Agree. The study asked for 2 things from one group and 1 thing from another group and is trying to suggest that we should ignore the first ask.

The authors are also abusing cortisol measurements to imply cortisol is something specific for bad stress when it’s not really that. Cortisol isn’t really a “bad” hormone like a lot of people believe. If you have too little cortisol you’ll feel terrible. Even fun activities will raise cortisol levels. Taking synthetic cortisol analogs often makes people feel good (for a very short while, chronic use will quickly downregulate this effect and requires slow tapering, don’t do it unless medically necessary).

This study seems like junk science.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#47

Post by treeman79 »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #7
Trasmatta wrote: post #2

Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. It seems in many cases to be correlated with anxiety and depression. It can be difficult for people with high levels of empathy to recognize the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others. As a kid I was highly empathetic, and it's something I've struggled with my entire life. It never really felt li…

Don't numb it, master it and let it lead under control. Empathy is an incredible virtue, but it must be disciplined. I don't know enough neuroscience to know what the "right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex" is exactly but I know that you can over-ride/master it with reason and discipline. So I think there's something more to people allowing their better nature to slip under stress than simple brain chemicals. A colone…

Good sentiment. But when your being hurt emotionally and physically most days. Numbness becomes your only real defense.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#48

Post by germinalphrase »

Trasmatta wrote: post #2

Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. It seems in many cases to be correlated with anxiety and depression. It can be difficult for people with high levels of empathy to recognize the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others. As a kid I was highly empathetic, and it's something I've struggled with my entire life. It never really felt li…

FWIW, I have a close relation that matches the pattern you’re identifying, and they have had very positive results from Internal Family Systems Therapy.

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#49

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

Trasmatta wrote: post #2

Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. It seems in many cases to be correlated with anxiety and depression. It can be difficult for people with high levels of empathy to recognize the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others. As a kid I was highly empathetic, and it's something I've struggled with my entire life. It never really felt li…

I’m deeply sorry that you didn’t have the necessary support network to navigate your empathy when you were young. Now that you’re older, have you had any success in developing navigational skills and regaining your levels of empathy?

Re: Altruism under stress: cortisol negatively predicts charitable giving

#50

Post by TameAntelope »

Trasmatta wrote: post #2

Having a higher than average amount of empathy seems to be a disadvantage in many ways. It seems in many cases to be correlated with anxiety and depression. It can be difficult for people with high levels of empathy to recognize the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others. As a kid I was highly empathetic, and it's something I've struggled with my entire life. It never really felt li…

> the boundaries between their own self and the thoughts and feelings of others.

The perceived thoughts and feelings of others, and that's critical. You don't know the minds of the people around you, and presuming some kind of negative experience on the part of others is not often accurate.

The problem with empathy would be if you presume everyone to be having a bad time when it seems like, to you, they should be having a bad time.

IMO, that's actually arrogant, to think you can accurately know what someone else is thinking and feeling. Perhaps part of your struggle is this unidentified arrogance that you know the minds of others.

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