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Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

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Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern is the hundreds of GB of photos I have saved with Google and Apple. I assume one day I will wake up and find I've lost access to them with no recourse, which means backing them up on a large hard drive is my only real option, exactly like 2010.

There are other options. You can use something like rclone to make multiple copies across cloud storage providers. You could also rent some cheap cloud storage like Backblaze B2 and use a backup software like restic.

Interesting ideas. Thanks for the suggestions.

Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#262
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be in favor of legislation which allows for bans, but makes it harder to (not impossible) do so for the large companies. The EU's DMA (Digital Markets Act) defines "Gatekeepers", which is an OK definition of what could count as "large" in this context. Large companies shouldn't be able to get away with banning people without good reason, documenting and stating that good reason, and have a reasonable and "rea…

> Large companies shouldn't be able to get away with banning people without good reason Why not? I understand that a lot of people don't like this behavior, but why should it be illegal? The law is a very blunt instrument, and government is already far too intrusive into every aspect of people's lives. The fact that you see a problem does not mean the law/government can fix it. Consider the law/government version of…

>Why not? I understand that a lot of people don't like this behavior, but why should it be illegal?

Because these large companies are basically utility companies in my humble opinion, and wield a whole lot of power over people's lives and livelihoods. There are basically defacto monopolies in their respective spaces. This power and influence shouldn't go entirely unchecked. Same as we (try to) regulate other industries, often even players that are far "smaller" than the internet behemoths. Which brings me back to Eigentum verpflichtet.

>The law is a very blunt instrument, and government is already far too intrusive into every aspect of people's lives.

I see this argument a lot. First of all, we're not even talking about regulating people, we talk about regulating companies worth billions and sometimes even trillions, so I am a little less concerned about being "intrusive" there. And then, the law is quite often rather blunt, agreed, but it doesn't have to be that blunt.

Google's or Meta's "Community Standards" at the same time seem to be rather blunt as well, and the enforcement deliberately arbitrary.

>Some people, whenever they have a problem with behavior they don't like, think: Let's get the law/government to solve it! Now they have two problems.

At the least with the law/government[0], we have a theoretical control (through voting), theoretical checks and balances (through separation of power) and a theoretical way to have input into decision making (through activism, lobbying, opposition parties). We do not have any of that when it comes to companies.

And not everything the government does is always bad. The government is the reason you're drinking a lot less lead in your water, that we do not let regular companies sell heroin solution as cough syrup anymore, or that banks aren't allowed to redline black people anymore (whether enforcement works is another thing), or dump their toxic waste in your backyard. In my parts of the world, the government even made it so that I do not have to fear going bankrupt and homeless when I lose a job or become ill, or that an employer cannot knowingly assign me jobs that will make me ill without even telling me about that risk.

Yeah, there are plenty of things the governments did and still do that are not great, or outright bad and/or evil, sometimes because a policy didn't work out the way it was expected and lead to bad outcomes, sometimes because a policy had exactly the indented outcome. And it usually takes quite some effort and time to change that.

At the same time, there are plenty of bad things large companies did and are still doing, more often than not to maximize profits, or at least for power and influence, and the only real incentives we have to make them stop is market pressure (i.e. boycotts or protests, which hardly ever work) or regulation (which works quite well, but can have the side effect of regulatory capture). Take the instrument of regulation away, because it's too blunt, or the government cannot be trusted, or whatever, and we'll end up (again[1]) with a bunch of companies that are defacto governments - but of the dictatorial variety.

To me, the solution neither is no regulation nor always regulation, but finding a good balance of what and what not to regulate, and how to regulate. The power balance between those large internet companies and their users/customers/subcontractors and "gig workers"[2] is skewed very heavily in favor of the large companies and thus I think could use some unskewing by regulatory measures.

[0] When I keep talking about government(s) here, I mean our democratic governments.

[1] The East India Company, for example, while still technically beholden to the Crown, had their own military, and made their own defacto laws in large parts of the world. It took the Indian rebellion, with a toll of close to 1M lives, and the British Government to reign them in.

[2] I would consider a lot of the small time app developers to be essentially gig workers, except they write code instead of taxing you around, while a major chunk of the financial and other profits goes to the app stores.

Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They will have to respond to this Why? If they think they have the right to terminate your account, and you have no standing, why would you expect them not to ignore your lawyer in the very same way they ignore you? Taking this to court might get their attention, but you also have to show grounds for why you get to override their decision. IANAL, but I don't see why Google isn't allowed to just say "nope, you're ou…

> and you have no standing, How - how! - can you justify the statement that you have "no standing" when your income stream was arbitrarily cut off with no explanation? > IANAL, but I don't see why Google isn't allowed to just say "nope, you're outta here" to anyone it damned well wants. Because it's wildly unfair and morally abhorrent ?

Google isn't an employer or a landlord here, they were the developers' agent (according to the distribution agreement). They simply exercised their rights to stop representing them. The developers have no expectation of representation or service when it's directly against Google's express will.

There are so many transferable analogies here, but your wild and moral handwaving aside, I'm yet to hear why Google should have to let these developers sell through Google's marketplace, on Google's dime. If you put all your eggs into one big Google-shaped basket, your livelihood exists (and ends) at the whim of Google. Same applies to all the Apple devs this has happened to. And that's the developers' fault.

I think you might argue that's unfair, you might argue that Google and Apple's and Valve's (etc) marketplaces should be classed as public utility services, and that the public should have access —and I might agree with you— but that's not currently the case.

It's Google's ball and they're taking it home.

Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I discussed this very particular issue with my friend who is an attorney, he mentioned that you can't actually abuse the system with frivolous lawsuits. Judges will start throwing your cases out and you can be disciplined by the BAR.

At the same you don’t think google is big enough to hire lawyers to file n-1 the amount to get fined or punished frivolous lawsuits against you and keep rotating lawyers?

No, because at n=3 the the judge will say “if you file another one of these, I’ll fine you $1,000,000, and Sundar better be here at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow so I can explain it to him personally.”

Courts and judges aren’t something to be truffled with.

Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#265
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not prudent unless it's likely to both happen and succeed. Not only is "I'll sue you" often just bluster, if they already think they're in the right —and I'm yet to understand that they're not— they'll be betting that you're not actually going to risk paying their legal fees to make a faulty argument in court. In making that bet, only lose out by having their legal team engage with you. That's expensive. In a lo…

"It's not prudent unless it's likely to both happen and succeed." No, that is incorrect - there is an asymmetry here which is (oddly) in the ops favor. Paying my lawyer (for instance) to create and send a letter like this, etc., might cost me $3-800. Properly responding to it and covering all the bases and carrying out ones legal duties vis a vis google might cost 5x that. ... and the letter writer will be dealing wi…

Costs aside, you're still weighing up "the case", like it's a definite, or that by responding to a legal letter, that it's definitely not. In real life it's neither of those things.

Very few people actually litigate unless they have very strong grounds on well trodden rights. I'm trying to establish any grounds in other comments, but any lawyer looking to litigate this is going to have to warn to their clients that they're not going to win against Goliath. When you're dealing with a family that's just lost its only income, hiring a lawyer is even more unlikely.

And even if Google reads and responds with the best letter, solid reasons, the bulk of a real legal defence, short of some backtracking or a large payoff, there's no reason the devs wouldn't go on to sue.

For a case which would take a junior and a massive pile of existing case law and afternoon to dismiss, I don't see that making a new penpal here helps Google. It might be ten times the amount to read and respond to a letter, but it's twenty times less likely to happen.

Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#266

It's these kinds of stories that remind me that governments are not the only bodies of control that laboring people must contend with -- corporations have just as much, if not more in some cases, power.

The worst part about corporate power is that writing laws to restrict the kinds of nonsense Apple and Google do is hard as fuck, tends to trample on more general rights. On the other hand, not doing anything lets the government pressure the corps to do stuff the government can't do, like censor stuff pretty indiscriminately, and is basically playing a straw libertarian that's merely allergic to the word "government" - private Ingsoc is fine.

Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#267
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might seem like a "correct" answer, but it's not, because it won't accomplish anything. Google has orders of magnitude more money and resources to fight a lawsuit than any individual plaintiff does. This particular plaintiff is not the first, or even the thousandth, to have this problem and find that it's not fixable. The only really correct answer to the root problem here is for developers to stop using Google Pl…

> The only really correct answer to the root problem here is for developers to stop using Google Play as a distribution channel. But Google has deliberately made it essentially impossible to do this. 1. The user needs to discover that other app ecosystems even exist. 2. They will then need to jailbreak their phone. 3. This voids their warranty. That eliminates 99+% of your customer base off the top. And of course Goo…

> Google has deliberately made it essentially impossible to do this.

No, users have made it essentially impossible to do this.

In other words: the majority of users don't care about the problems of developers. They just want apps without having to think about where they come from, and the simplest way to do that is to use Google Play if they have an Android phone.

That's not a Google problem. That's a user problem. If it's indeed a problem. And the way for developers to fix it, if it needs to be fixed, is to not give users apps if users insist on only using Google Play. Make it so users have to go elsewhere to get apps at all, because developers refuse to "play" on Google Play, so there aren't any apps there. Then users will be on the same side as developers, and there are a lot more users.

Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#268
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Large companies shouldn't be able to get away with banning people without good reason Why not? I understand that a lot of people don't like this behavior, but why should it be illegal? The law is a very blunt instrument, and government is already far too intrusive into every aspect of people's lives. The fact that you see a problem does not mean the law/government can fix it. Consider the law/government version of…

>Why not? I understand that a lot of people don't like this behavior, but why should it be illegal? Because these large companies are basically utility companies in my humble opinion, and wield a whole lot of power over people's lives and livelihoods. There are basically defacto monopolies in their respective spaces. This power and influence shouldn't go entirely unchecked. Same as we (try to) regulate other industri…

> these large companies are basically utility companies

I could see the Internet itself being treated as a public utility (and US law already does this in some ways, for example by requiring ISPs to serve rural areas where there aren't enough users to make it profitable). But app stores are not. App stores are the way they are not because of any fundamental limitation of app distribution over the Internet, but because users have chosen that model. If developers want to "fix" that, they need to use their own market power to not use Google Play at all, so that users have to switch to a different model because there are no apps on Google Play. The government doesn't need to get involved in this.

> and wield a whole lot of power over people's lives and livelihoods

Google only has power over your livelihood as a developer if you let them. Which, as I've already commented upthread, is not a choice any sane developer should make given Google's track record. Developers should simply stop distributing apps through Google Play if they don't like Google's behavior. That's how a free market is supposed to work.

> we're not even talking about regulating people, we talk about regulating companies worth billions and sometimes even trillions, so I am a little less concerned about being "intrusive" there.

Regulating companies worth billions and trillions just makes it harder for companies that aren't worth billions and trillions to compete. It doesn't faze the companies that are worth billions and trillions; they just buy the regulations that favor them. Look up "regulatory capture". Governments can't effectively regulate companies of this size. But they can certainly regulate potential competitors to those companies out of existence.

> We do not have any of that when it comes to companies.

But you have something a lot more powerful: the ability to boycott. All those government avenues you describe are extremely weak, and continue to get weaker over time. The US Congress has approval ratings in the single digits and incumbent reelection rates above 90 percent. That's a huge sign that you can't fix whatever problem you want to fix using the government. Whereas in the free market, you can exercise your market power immediately by changing what transactions you do and do not choose to make.

> not everything the government does is always bad

The fact that the government does some good things does not mean government regulation is a good thing all things considered. And even with the "good" things you describe, you don't see their downsides. You don't see what the world would have been like if people had chosen to use free market power to regulate those things instead of the government.

> boycotts or protests, which hardly ever work

Protests hardly ever work because they don't change the company's bottom line. Boycotts can and do work because they do change the company's bottom line.

> a bunch of companies that are defacto governments

Companies only get such power if governments give it to them. Your example of the East India Company illustrates that. Without the special privileges given to them by the British government, they would have been powerless to do the things they did.

> I would consider a lot of the small time app developers to be essentially gig workers

For Google (or Apple if they develop iOS apps), yes. Why? Why are developers continuing to feed these monsters?

Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#269
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why not? I understand that a lot of people don't like this behavior, but why should it be illegal? Because these large companies are basically utility companies in my humble opinion, and wield a whole lot of power over people's lives and livelihoods. There are basically defacto monopolies in their respective spaces. This power and influence shouldn't go entirely unchecked. Same as we (try to) regulate other industri…

> these large companies are basically utility companies I could see the Internet itself being treated as a public utility (and US law already does this in some ways, for example by requiring ISPs to serve rural areas where there aren't enough users to make it profitable). But app stores are not. App stores are the way they are not because of any fundamental limitation of app distribution over the Internet, but becaus…

>App stores are the way they are not because of any fundamental limitation of app distribution over the Internet, but because users have chosen that model.

Users have not chosen. App developers have not chosen. Apple has chosen and Google copied them.

Google and Apple effectively have a duopoly over app stores.

>Developers should simply stop distributing apps through Google Play if they don't like Google's behavior. That's how a free market is supposed to work.

No, the free market is supposed to work by having a seller and a buyer find each other and make a deal. However, with app stores, a middle man forcefully inserts itself into that equation in a way that cannot be sidestepped by buyer and seller. Some buyers and sellers are fine with it, but some is hardly all.

The option app developers have right now is to either be obedient to the app stores, or change profession.

>Regulating companies worth billions and trillions just makes it harder for companies that aren't worth billions and trillions to compete.

You're talking regulatory capture, which indeed is a concern. That's why I mentioned the "gatekeeper" definition of the upcoming EU DMA... It considers size and (market) power, and only regulates large companies.

>But you have something a lot more powerful: the ability to boycott.

Boycotts are a joke in general. They only work if you find a majority supporting that such a boycott, and often to a degree where it actually hurts. It doesn't do anything to protect any (large) minority. So when e.g. black people got redlined, were they supposed to boycott the banks that refused to do business with them in the first place? Because the white majority clearly didn't care enough; they got their loans, they were happy and content, and often didn't even really know about the plight of their fellow citizens.

>The US Congress has approval ratings in the single digits and incumbent reelection rates above 90 percent. That's a huge sign that you can't fix whatever problem you want to fix using the government.

The US political system can be changed. The Tea Party demonstrated that, Obama and Bernie and Trump demonstrated that (whether one agrees with these people is another matter, the point is that even in the US, which is plagued by the first-past-the-post voting, change is possible).

And you don't necessarily have to replace people, just make them fear enough that they might be replaced if they do not play ball. You could consider that a boycott at the ballot ;)

>The fact that the government does some good things does not mean government regulation is a good thing all things considered.

No, it doesn't necessitate that. But historically, it is, all things considered.

>And even with the "good" things you describe, you don't see their downsides.

Yeah, I somehow fail to see the downside of the government preventing companies from dumping toxic waste in my backyard, or government enabling me to get health care when I need it.

>You don't see what the world would have been like if people had chosen to use free market power to regulate those things instead of the government.

But I have seen that. I explicitly mentioned the East India company. I saw banks redlining people, fuel producers putting lead in gasoline, industry working people to literal death (making them sick, or working them in unsafe conditions) because human resources were cheap and replenish-able, and people were willing to do that work to avoid almost certain starvation and homelessness if they did not. And then there is this profession that doesn't care about laws anyway: narcos and other criminals. And they bring havoc wherever they go.

I have seen enough.

>Companies only get such power if governments give it to them. Your example of the East India Company illustrates that.

You're basically advocating for no government (or an entirely toothless government). In your system, the East India company would have existed, with one difference: It wouldn't have had to ask the monarch for permission first. They had power not just because of the special privileges (which they wouldn't even need in your no-government system), they had power because they had money. And that money allowed them to form an army and declare themselves rulers of India. If there was no British government, they'd still be ruler of India today (and probably quite a few other places).

>Why are developers continuing to feed these monsters?

Because they got dragged in with rosy promised of profits, became entangled in the network effects, and are now beholden to their feudal rulers, unless they want to be risky and change professions. Which they usually don't, until they are forced to, like the guy in the article probably will be.

That's like asking a person in a sweatshop why they still work there. Or the Uber driver who barely makes ends meet, or the amazon warehouse worker who wears diapers because a regular pee break would take too long.

Re: Google cancels Google Play publisher account and ends family’s source of income

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same you don’t think google is big enough to hire lawyers to file n-1 the amount to get fined or punished frivolous lawsuits against you and keep rotating lawyers?

No, because at n=3 the the judge will say “if you file another one of these, I’ll fine you $1,000,000, and Sundar better be here at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow so I can explain it to him personally.” Courts and judges aren’t something to be truffled with.

So then a different google subsidiary with no clear connections will file the suit next. Also if google wants to do something or ruin someone a few million dollar fine isn't going to deter them one bit
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