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When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

nytimes.com

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Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#231

Post by wolverine876 »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #67
wolverine876 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a certain level it's not hard to understand, in that it's predictable: Power corrupts, and you can depend on it. People with power over vulnerable human beings, and with no check on their power, can be generally predicted to abuse it. Just look for those situations and I predict that you will often find it. (That's one reason transparency and openness are so important.) Look at child sex abuse scandals: Who do the…

"Power corrupts" may explain the abusive nature of "tough love" programs, but it does not explain how the teen became troubled in the first place. Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them.

> Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them.

I'm not sure what you mean? Plenty of parents and older siblings abuse their power, and plenty don't.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#232

Post by wolverine876 »

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #68

Stories about these institutions get conflated into a mess that scarcely resembles the reality. In a way, this is inevitable with a wide variety of schools and treatment centers, and a yet wider variety of perspectives. This particular story tells us little about these schools – it describes the perspective of a student, a client. This is valuable and I'm grateful to read it. However, I caution other readers against…

> Stories about these institutions get conflated into a mess that scarcely resembles the reality.

Why do you say that, and then why is your story different in that respect?

We cannot, in the face of evil-doing, remain forever in a state of hesitation, saying 'we don't know'. We need think critically, accept our uncertainty, and yet at times draw conclusions and act.

> For example, some students thought it was abusive to require skiing and mountain biking two days per week

Those are strawpersons. Who is saying it? It is not at all what is described in the OP or in the other stories by HN commenters.

> The next story you hear will probably contradict it but also be truthful, and we should listen.

The stories here in this HN discussion agree with the OP.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#233

Post by wolverine876 »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #134
wolverine876 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can think of other populations that consistently tell stories of abuse, over generations, and are downplayed and denied - today, yesterday, even here on HN.

Not really following, unless you mean in a general sense that this happens all the time, all over the world.

I mean, you can look at vulnerable populations that report abuse (not the same abuse as kids in these programs, but abuse), and you can see it denied, including here on HN regularly. Women and black Americans are two prominent examples.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#234

Post by erdos4d »

dahfizz wrote: post #140
unityByFreedom wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some children are "bad" and need to be taught not to hurt others. The title of this post is relevant. OP "obliged" because he was told he was bad. The point is to not do that. > Children certainly need boundaries and rules Rules are paramount in "Positive Disipline". From the section "Creating Rules" [1]: > In her book entitled Positive Discipline, Jane Nelsen emphasizes the importance of not only creating clear ru…

Have you ever interacted with a "troubled" teen? This comment is not based on reality. It's laughable, really. There are kids who cannot be reasoned with. You try to explain the importance of healthy teeth to troubled teen and they will respond "I don't care". "Natural consequences" are not sufficient. A troubled kid will drink himself into the hospital over and over. A troubled kid will have run ins with the law ove…

I'm certain you can find teens who have such attitudes and behaviors, but I'd argue that every one of them was made that way through years of abuse and neglect. Does it help them to look at them as fucked up, irredeemable, etc? Cause that is exactly how your comment reads.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#235

Post by Wojtkie »

starwind wrote: post #7

How do these cases not result in mass prosecutions? It shouldn't be too hard to tie a few people to the abuse at these schools, then police say, "give us names and help us understand who was responsible at the top, or you're looking at many, many years in prison for child abuse and we'll just find someone else who'll talk" You know, the same way prosecutors go after mobsters and drug rings

A lot of these places are located in counties or states with lax regulations and rules around this. The one I went to "lost" a few of my classmates' patient notes and histories. Also, a lot of the stuff they do isn't illegal. It's just emotionally abusive at times, but because you have all this "support" and attention around its not really seen as neglect. All the kids look healthy, they're exercising, eating three times a day, and their grades are usually better than ever. I do not know a single person from my few years in the troubled teen industry who actually feels better. I've lost 3 of my classmates to suicide in the 3-4 years following treatment. These programs take advantage of families in very vulnerable times.

Unfortunately, you only ever hear about anecdotes because there isn't a lot of genuine research done about efficacy, and since its teens, its all very restricted.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#236

Post by unityByFreedom »

wolverine876 wrote: post #231
unityByFreedom wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Power corrupts" may explain the abusive nature of "tough love" programs, but it does not explain how the teen became troubled in the first place. Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them.

> Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them. I'm not sure what you mean? Plenty of parents and older siblings abuse their power, and plenty don't.

I wouldn't say you can "depend on" power corrupting parents. I'd say it's more the exception, and that parental behavior is better described by how they themselves were raised. By the time a misbehaving kid is in their teens, parents are grasping at straws trying to figure out what to do. They need training, not condemnation.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#237

Post by unityByFreedom »

brimble wrote: post #215
unityByFreedom wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you have a typical family where each kid has found a way to get your attention. Positive Discipline suggests you likely dote on the one who is well behaved, while the other two primarily receive attention in the form of "why can't you be more like Matt?" Or, when they do improve, they don't get any attention for it because it's not up to what Matt could or would do. How accurate does that sound for your f…

The one who's easy is the youngest. I assure you the first born got a lot more positive 1-on-1 attention. [EDIT] Also: > The starting suggestion positive discipline might have is to block out some one-on-one time in the week, one parent with one misbehaving kid, even if it's just for an hour each. Then you are fulfilling their need for a connection in a positive way. You may see each other in a different light and ev…

Do you hold family meetings where everyone can share what's going well and not-so-well? That might be something to look into if not.

A family counselor could better guide on how to get that started. It may be awkward or bumpy the first few times.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#238

Post by trupv »

hef19898 wrote: post #111
inglor_cz wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"to become who they are and want to to become no matter what that is" That sounds like a circular definition.

I believe there is a true self in all of us. Whatever that is, and it might change. We have no way to tell what that is, so. Discovering this is what personal development is about. This development should be as unhindered as possible. One, rather obvious, example is trans-gender people. That's the "who / what you are" part. The become what you want part is ranging from career choices to the kind of person, besides id…

Your example is surely "who / what you aren't" though? A man who isn't a woman (or vice versa), but wants to be, for whatever reason.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#239

Post by chillwaves »

charlieflowers wrote: post #214
taurath wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents are much less sacrosanct in the US/UK than anywhere else. By what measure? Cultural relevance or actual legal authority? > No one actually knows how to raise children. We have a much better idea now about how to meet the developmental needs of children than ever before, I think almost anyone would argue. We have studies on the outcomes of things like corporal punishment. We have the ACE study and it’s effec…

> We have studies on the outcomes of things like corporal punishment Really, though, if you understand what a study is, and the principles it must live up to to avoid inaccurate conclusions, wouldn’t you have to say that the effects of corporal punishment is almost impossible to study? To do it right they’d need to get rick and mortys help to bounce between dimensions. (I am sorry you suffered abuse, and I too wish m…

How is this comment necessary? Many things are studied without the ability to "bounce between dimensions".

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#240

Post by welshwelsh »

slibhb wrote: post #198
taurath wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents are much less sacrosanct in the US/UK than anywhere else. By what measure? Cultural relevance or actual legal authority? > No one actually knows how to raise children. We have a much better idea now about how to meet the developmental needs of children than ever before, I think almost anyone would argue. We have studies on the outcomes of things like corporal punishment. We have the ACE study and it’s effec…

> By what measure? Cultural relevance or actual legal authority? Both. Wales made corporeal punishment illegal recently. That would be unthinkable in most of the world. In most Asian cultures, children have a lifelong obligation to their parents. In the US, once you're an adult, you're on your own and it's not uncommon to have limited contact with your parents. > We have a much better idea now about how to meet the d…

>Wales made corporeal punishment illegal recently. That would be unthinkable in most of the world. In most Asian cultures, children have a lifelong obligation to their parents.

China banned corporal punishment during the communist revolution of 1949, and is about to enact new laws that strengthen enforcement in rural areas and send offending parents to reeducation facilities. Japan banned it in 1947, and passed another law more explicitly banning it in 2020.

Still you are right in that compared to most of the world, the US/UK gives less authority to parents. But compared to other developed countries with similar GDP, they are still very traditional.

>the fact that my parents were/are wonderful and my father hit me occasionally explains my views here.

I'm sure many people have the same experience, but frankly I don't understand why this would lead you to conclude that hitting a child is reasonable. People cannot be divided into "good people" and "abusers"; everyone is capable of both types of behavior under the right circumstances. We can always use more research, but we have studied this topic enough that you should not be relying so much on personal anecdotal experience instead of peer reviewed research. We have large, well controlled studies that consistently show that corporal punishment contributes to developmental problems and is an ineffective method of promoting good behavior.

Answer me this: is there any type of evidence you would accept? If you were to design a study to determine whether corporal punishment is helpful or harmful, what method would you use? How big would the study have to be? How strong of a correlation would you need to see to believe it?

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