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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#261

Post by javajosh »

thehappypm wrote: post #224
caffeine wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The no-test policy is espoused by two groups who find themselves to be unlikely allies: naive progressives and actual racists. The naive progressives think what you’d expect: “Minorities and poor people can’t possibly be expected to do well on anything objective, so it’s unfair to test them”. It is bigotry, but at least it’s well-meaning. The actual racists are more cynical: “I don’t want Yale to be 67% Asian.” Obvio…

I’m interested to see what happens if schools become truly race blind. I’ve heard that top schools may be >50% Asian. What would that mean for these schools? Would being predominantly Asian mean Harvard isn’t Harvard anymore? Would lopsided racial makeup make these schools less pretigious? Would they produce even more value with the top minds and nothing else?

One would hope that if admittence into these schools is truly based on merit, then they'd pick the best regardless. I mean, what if Inuits turned out to be the most gifted genotype of humans WRT intelligence. Would it be wrong if Harvard became 80% Inuit? Presumably the student body would be smart enough to retain the culture that works and dump the stuff that doesn't, at a relatively conservative rate. (Personally I think elitism itself is what these institutions are defining/producing/protecting, and math ability is (relatively) easy to measure. I personally would love it if MIT started feeding us Presidents and Senators instead of Harvard -- or maybe better, if Harvard really kicked people out for failing to learn calc by second year.)

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#262

Post by blululu »

thehappypm wrote: post #224
caffeine wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The no-test policy is espoused by two groups who find themselves to be unlikely allies: naive progressives and actual racists. The naive progressives think what you’d expect: “Minorities and poor people can’t possibly be expected to do well on anything objective, so it’s unfair to test them”. It is bigotry, but at least it’s well-meaning. The actual racists are more cynical: “I don’t want Yale to be 67% Asian.” Obvio…

I’m interested to see what happens if schools become truly race blind. I’ve heard that top schools may be >50% Asian. What would that mean for these schools? Would being predominantly Asian mean Harvard isn’t Harvard anymore? Would lopsided racial makeup make these schools less pretigious? Would they produce even more value with the top minds and nothing else?

Not quite the same as an Ivy, but UC Berkeley (top public university) is doing just fine with disproportionate representation of East Asian Students. Still prestigious, still a great school, and still stocked with hippie coops if that’s your idea of the school’s culture.

Ivy League schools are a bit different. Part of the value is access to capital, which means maintaining a wealthy community of alumni. The legacy admissions are grotesquely unfair but they do happen for a reason.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#263

Post by MiroF »

tester756 wrote: post #259
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

>However, there is very limited evidence that SAT coaching actually increases your SAT score. The NACAC did a study on this and they found that average gains of test-prep students is ~30 points (this was when the SAT was 2400 points). IIRC SAT's equivalent of Matura in Poland, so I'll be talking about my case I've been taking advanced math exam and I had some time + some money (like 10% of minimal wage) during winter…

The SAT doesn't testing anything as high level as that.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#264

Post by nkrisc »

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

Just an interesting anecdote on the predictive power of standardized tests:

When I took the ACT in 2006, I scored around a 24 or 26 for composite score. Not very good. I didn't prep nor study for it because I was pretty apathetic about school and did my best to coast on whatever natural talent I could muster. Since my score wasn't very good, I retook it several weeks later. About halfway through I realized I was given the exact same question set as the first time I took it. I had of course not studied nor prepped for the second time, being the apathetic teenager I was. However this time I score around 32 or 34 or so. I don't remember exactly.

What was different? Why did my score go up about 8 points? Better mood that day? Which score was the "real" one that best represented my abilities?

Did I eat a better breakfast beforehand? I recognized some of the questions but of course I never expected to see the same questions a second time so I didn't prep for that. I didn't prep for anything about it.

I wonder how many kid's college admissions results are ultimately because of one bad or good day? I suppose the other lesson is if you get a bad score, try again. You only need one good score.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#265

Post by MaximumYComb »

dijit wrote: post #30
tharne wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So much for that common, popular notion that standardized tests do not predict anything of value. To be fair, I don't think the debate was ever about the quality or predictive value of the tests. There is a small, but well-organized and vocal subset of the population that hates the idea of excellence and differentiation. They want, and have been quite successful in, the replacement of standards of excellence with v…

Unsure if I buy this. I'm definitely not the person you describe, but the idea of standardised testing being equivalent across all factors just strikes me as being fundamentally untrue. Personally I am very lucky to test well; and I definitely buy the notion that people who test well in SATs may go on to do better in University, but the reasons are probably the same: freedom from worry about financial circumstances w…

I grew up poor and I achieved some of the highest scores state wide in my country's standardised tests as a child (we get tested at ~8,10,12,14). A lot of my peers at my school were from social housing. My assessment is that their biggest issue wasn't money but their homelife. Parents who didn't value education, or even a basic respect for rules/authority. The kids were wild because their parents were kind of wild themselves. Money wouldn't fix scores for these kids.

If you wish to make a political correct stance, I wouldn't go the money route. I'd say that these kids are victims of intergenerational poverty cycles.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#266

Post by WaitWaitWha »

To deal with socioeconomic issues in STEM, start early; very early like K-12.

In a vague fantasy world in the USA, I would reduce the Department of Education to a fraction, shift education to the States, take the best parts of the winning systems fom all States, and make Federal recommendations accordingly. Rinse, repeat.

I am saddened that most of the children I come across in first-world nations, lack the ability to rationally think through a real-world problem.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#267

Post by micromacrofoot »

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7
paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

It's been decades, but back when I was in high school rich kids paid people to fake their identity to take the tests (with fake IDs). I heard rumors that it was a dozen kids in my graduating class, and witnessed 2 myself. 1 was caught.

Does anyone know if they have better checks for this now?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#268

Post by mbesto »

david38 wrote: post #183
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

> All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for most children, even the “rich” ones, this simply isn’t true. It’s most definitely not necessary.

I'd rather trust studies than your anecdote. Just saying.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#269

Post by runarberg »

zozbot234 wrote: post #249
hooande wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe that if you were from a very poor town, poor by the standards of african american neighborhoods in Detroit, that giving your child a $35 practice book would have a similar outcome?

Those places are sadly lacking even in the most basic standards of education, so their potential ACT scores are frankly irrelevant as is admission to MIT. You gotta learn to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run.

Not only is this analogy wrong (there are plenty of animals that run the moment they are born) but it is also deeply insensitive.

The reason people do worse from underprivileged is not only the lack of quality education, but a fundamental difference in the quality of life. Everything from the diet, to available time, and noise pollution, all makes a difference on education level. Our education system relies heavily on outside help, and poorer neighborhoods often don’t have the time and energy to give their kids even the most basic help with their homework.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#270

Post by commandlinefan »

neovive wrote: post #57
notacoward wrote: post #3

This is just so beautifully written it brings a tear to my eye. It explains their rationale, points to evidence, acknowledges shortcomings or gaps in knowledge, and shows empathy for those affected. Worth reading just for its pedagogical value, plus it's on an important topic near and dear to many hearts.

100%! As a parent of a child about to go through the college admissions process (with his heart set on MIT--of course), I want him to read this particularly for the later part of the article: "...you are also not your MIT application..." The acceptance rate is so low, that it should not be used as a measure of self-worth and accomplishment.

As the parent of a student who was just rejected from MIT... I wonder if the reinstatement of the SAT requirement came too late. I'll never really know, but it is possible.
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