Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles • Hacker News Board

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#221

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

screye wrote: post #170

paulmd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

Yeah, I have found that it improves 3 things. (this is for GRE, which is similar) 1. Basics: If you don't know standard permutations and combinations then knowing those formulae off the top of your head is nice to have. The language portions in particular, take a lot of preparation for non-native speakers. 2. Speed: Giving a decent number of sample tests helps put you in game mode for the real thing. It also acquaint…

The gotchas are answers that match common student mistakes.

What I'd do is solve the problem without looking at the answers so they wouldn't bias me. Then look for a match of mine with one of the answers.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#222

Post by rsync » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #88

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I used to take the ACT for people, they'd pay me in beer (which I wasn't old enough to buy for myself). You'd get ID'd at the entrance, but nobody kept track of whether the name on your test was the name on your ID, so you'd just take each other's tests. It might be harder now, I don't know.

My instant moral judgement on your having taken tests for others dissipated fully upon learning that they paid you in beer.

I will smile all day thinking about this.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#223

Post by MaximumYComb » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

david38 wrote: post #183

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

IQ is quite heritible. This is especially so when upbringing is not neglectful. People who land very high paying tech roles are probably average higher in IQ than the general population.

Your daughter likely has the benefit of strong academic genetics. A child like that who puts in effort (i.e. works through a book) is going to do amazingly well. I'd also argue that families who value academics are also more likely to buy the books to do a couple hours per week in.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#224

Post by thehappypm » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

caffeine wrote: post #209

rg111 wrote: post #130

> as a result, not having SATs/ACT scores to consider tends to raise socioeconomic barriers to demonstrating readiness for our education It all come down to me to what this point touches. When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply know there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT. When you…

The no-test policy is espoused by two groups who find themselves to be unlikely allies: naive progressives and actual racists. The naive progressives think what you’d expect: “Minorities and poor people can’t possibly be expected to do well on anything objective, so it’s unfair to test them”. It is bigotry, but at least it’s well-meaning. The actual racists are more cynical: “I don’t want Yale to be 67% Asian.” Obvio…

I’m interested to see what happens if schools become truly race blind. I’ve heard that top schools may be >50% Asian. What would that mean for these schools? Would being predominantly Asian mean Harvard isn’t Harvard anymore? Would lopsided racial makeup make these schools less pretigious? Would they produce even more value with the top minds and nothing else?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#225

Post by zaidf » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #178

tharne wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So much for that common, popular notion that standardized tests do not predict anything of value. To be fair, I don't think the debate was ever about the quality or predictive value of the tests. There is a small, but well-organized and vocal subset of the population that hates the idea of excellence and differentiation. They want, and have been quite successful in, the replacement of standards of excellence with v…

I've pushed back against standardized testing at certain points of my life, and I don't think this comment even remotely summarizes my views. If anything, I would say that my views are the opposite -- homogenization creates a lack of differentiation around skill and aptitude based on questionable science (and sometimes outright pseudoscience) and often leads to an oversimplification of human intelligence in general.…

What's a better alternative in your view?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#226

Post by hn_user82179 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

mgh2 wrote: post #147

parkingrift wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. Disagree. I worked for the Princeton Review while in college back in the day. We would outright guarantee 99th percentile for one on one tutoring. If you didn't get 99th percentile the course was refunded or you could take it again. For classroom tutoring we would guarantee some improvement of I be…

Maybe there was another variable at play: language. SATs are in English. If English is not a student's primary language and fluency improves as they advance academically, up to a plateau with age. Not sure if this was properly controlled in SAT studies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11007/

Glad you mentioned this. I went to a strong wealthy public high school with a high asian population (~50%?). When I was there, a lot of my friends were 2nd generation immigrants and their parents still spoke their native language at home. Their kids (my friends) were perfectly fluent/native in English but didn't do as well in the "edge vocabulary" parts of the SAT and I always figured that was why (in comparison to me and my english-at-home parents).

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#227

Post by JJMcJ » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

The SAT, ACT, and even IQ tests, were originally created in part to help identity promising students who weren't from upscale backgrounds.

I'm not 100% sure that the tests can't be coached, but certainly not like the "leadership", etc.

And even if they can't be raised by coaching, the scores can certainly be lowered by poor education and a chaotic living situation.

EDIT: Most people who can pay for coaching are already sending their kids to the kind of high schools that serve to get them ready, so they are close to their peak already.

Even things like summer public service, there are consultants who can tell you, based on your target school, the best one for that school, like is it better to work on a clinic project in Honduras, or teach basic literacy in Burkina Faso.

Never mind that the plane fare to get your youth group to Burkina Faso would pay the school fees for an entire village, with enough left over to pay 1/2 the teacher's salary for a year.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#228

Post by thehappypm » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #211

I am so happy to see this. I went to high school in a bit of a backwater in the US. People don’t really go to selective colleges or care much about applying. It was only doing very well on standardized tests and spending time on the internet looking for info about colleges that led me to believe I could go to one of these places. I got into several and attended one, and I believe it greatly positively changed my life…

This wasn’t my path, but many of my peers where I went to college had a similar type of story. They came from very poor areas like rural Texas or rural Georgia, and they got into engineering after getting into things like Lego sets and video games. They got great at math because it intrigued them even in their subpar schools. Aced the math SAT and then doors opened for them. I’d hate to see that door close.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#229

Post by nullc » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

parkingrift wrote: post #139

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

>It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. Disagree. I worked for the Princeton Review while in college back in the day. We would outright guarantee 99th percentile for one on one tutoring. If you didn't get 99th percentile the course was refunded or you could take it again. For classroom tutoring we would guarantee some improvement of I be…

> If you didn't get 99th percentile the course was refunded or you could take it again

Plenty of other domains have study programs with similar guarantees where the program has little to no effect-- it's a simple economic calculation: Set your rates so you make a good profit even if the program has no effect (even if you allow retaking the course, students won't be willing to waste their time and yours forever).

It would be more informative if you knew the actual before/after performance for the program. Elsewhere this has been studied (see links in the thread) and the improvement wasn't that substantial.

> You can't retroactively improve your GPA by doing better in the past.

Indeed, which means that people who's families have been carefully shepherding their education since they were much younger have an _insurmountable_ advantage in the GPA game. For people people who don't come from highly educated families, they only learn about the GPA boosting games as they start thinking about college years to late to take full advantage of them.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#230

Post by tptacek » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:50 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's important to keep in mind that the context here is the SAT/ACT versus the currently available alternatives. They're not saying that the SAT/ACT is good, but simply that it's better than other options. Some of those options, like alternative standard tests, may be significantly better, but in the world as it is today, it doesn't matter if they are, because lower-income candidates don't have access to them.