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When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

nytimes.com

221–230 of 255 posts

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it describes the perspective of a student, a client. The student is not the client. The student didn't pay for it. The student didn't ask to be there. The student isn't the one for whom incentives and interests align.

It's an interesting doublespeak to use for someone who is effectively interred - a prisoner, basically, but extralegal in that they weren't convicted to them. I think anyway, I'm sure there's plenty of these camps that actually are court mandated.

> I'm sure there's plenty of these camps that actually are court mandated.

That may be, but in those cases you would be talking about behavior problems that resulted in problems with the law, trial, guilt and conviction.

Those cases are per definition a sub-set of the much larger group of people that are innocent, don't get in trouble with the law, don't go to trial, aren't convicted, but still are sent to these internment facilities.

If these facilities were limited to kids that are actually mandated by court to go there, then it would be a VERY different story.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How the heck do you try to prevent something like that when all the warning signs are there? Surely not by preemptive incarceration. GP said: > Do kids lose TV privileges for a day if they refuse to go? Then I'd say it's not abusive. I don't agree. Coercing kids into physical sports is abusive. In general, using coercion (including denial of "privileges" that non-inmates consider a right) is both abusive and probab…

> My guess is that his behaviour was a rational response to being brought up in a home where he was denied love and affection. I wish this were always the case but statistically this would be a miracle. There is a non zero number of humans born that no matter what we do they will not work with the society that works for the rest of us. That’s the root of this issue. How do you help the ones that can be helped, and wh…

> I wish this were always the case but statistically this would be a miracle.

I certainly live around a whole lot of miracles.

> There is a non zero number of humans born that no matter what we do they will not work with the society that works for the rest of us.

How normalized emotional and physical abuse and neglect is in families would absolutely shock you then, as well as the outcomes.

An infographic from the foundational ACE (adverse childhood experiences) study showing outcomes of neglect, abuse or traumas in childhood: https://vetoviolence.cdc.gov/apps/aces-infographic/home

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#223
post #203
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I’ve learned at this point is that almost l no kid or adult is actually irrational. If someone seems irrational, it’s because their shoes are so different from any that you’ve been in. You simply have never experienced anything like their life (because if you did, you’d be like them). And you can’t actually ask someone to explain their own behavior because everyone only lives one life and they rarely know i…

>If someone seems irrational, it’s because their shoes are so different from any that you’ve been in. You simply have never experienced anything like their life (because if you did, you’d be like them). I disagree with this. As an example, a video came out the other day of a Chicago Transit Authority employee getting into an altercation with some guy. "Some guy" pushed him to the ground and walked away. The employee…

You can be 100% rational but 100% wrong. A computer is 100% rational but whether the output is right or wrong depends entirely on its input.

I make this distinction because if you want to change someone's mind or behavior, assuming that they are irrational is a non-starter. You won't make any progress. Once you get past that, you realize that they are actually being rational and that there are deeper obstacles that need attention.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#224
post #203
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I’ve learned at this point is that almost l no kid or adult is actually irrational. If someone seems irrational, it’s because their shoes are so different from any that you’ve been in. You simply have never experienced anything like their life (because if you did, you’d be like them). And you can’t actually ask someone to explain their own behavior because everyone only lives one life and they rarely know i…

>If someone seems irrational, it’s because their shoes are so different from any that you’ve been in. You simply have never experienced anything like their life (because if you did, you’d be like them). I disagree with this. As an example, a video came out the other day of a Chicago Transit Authority employee getting into an altercation with some guy. "Some guy" pushed him to the ground and walked away. The employee…

> I disagree with this. As an example, a video came out the other day of a Chicago Transit Authority employee getting into an altercation with some guy. "Some guy" pushed him to the ground and walked away. The employee very slowly (he was quite obese) rose to his feet, pulled a gun, walked after the guy, and then shot 14 times hitting him 3 times. In short, he murdered the guy on video in the middle of a crowded station. There's no way that's not irrational behavior.

"If someone seems irrational, it's because you don't understand the person" "Thats not true, because I didn't understand why somebody did something, so he must be irrational."

IDK if you know what circular reasoning is, but you're suffering from it.

The video in your example doesn't fully explain the situation. You don't know these people, you don't know what happened before, you don't know if they know each other, you don't know what the other guy said/etc.

I personally don't know what the circumstances are, but I do at least admit, that in the infinite amount of possible circumstances there are at least a couple which allow for a sane/rational person to shoot somebody in broad daylight.

> There's no way that's not irrational behavior.

There's a book called 'Thinking fast & slow' that talks about questions like these. "Is someone's behavior rational?", is a very hard question to answer for your brain, unanswerable even. Still your brain quickly comes up with an answer: 'it's irrational', disregarding the fact that this by itself might arguably be irrational, how does the brain do this? What is this answer based on exactly?

To answer hard questions quickly like that, your brain has a trick: it doesn't actually answer THAT question, but secretly gives the answer to a different question, that merely looks a lot like the original question. In this case, I suspect your brain is actually answering: "If I had an altercation on a crowded station, and somebody pushes me to the ground, WOULD I slowly get up, draw a gun, and shoot the guy 14 times?" The answer is no, so the 'answer' to the question is this guy being rational is also 'no'.

So basically your brain is transplanting your own experience, your own set of learned behavior, yourself, into the situation that you saw in the video, and then decides: "Well, I wouldn't do that, so conclusion: this guy is crazy". But ofcourse out of all the possible upbringings, experiences, lifes you could have, you only have 1. So you will never truly know how it is to be someone else.

The only way to know if the shooter in your video was rational or not, is to ask why he did it.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#225
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a question. Do these programs exist in other countries? A cursory search (I honestly am not sure what I should be looking for) couldn't find any here in Australia. Is this a uniquely American thing? Surely not, I assume. If it's not, do these programs have the same horrible stories coming out of them elsewhere, and if they don't, does that not paint a picture that the approach taken in the US isn't a good one?…

> Do these programs exist in other countries? Yes, they exist in India. The usual purpose is to force kids to study. India has coaching centres which are worse than jails for kids where they are coached to crack JEE (Elite college entrance exam) and other competitive exams. You can find all sort of abuse happening in these. Stack class ranking, subtle gender separation, and some verbal & physical abuse is common in m…

These institutions are nothing like coaching institutes. Read up a bit about these for ex: elan.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#226
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If someone seems irrational, it’s because their shoes are so different from any that you’ve been in. You simply have never experienced anything like their life (because if you did, you’d be like them). I disagree with this. As an example, a video came out the other day of a Chicago Transit Authority employee getting into an altercation with some guy. "Some guy" pushed him to the ground and walked away. The employee…

> I disagree with this. As an example, a video came out the other day of a Chicago Transit Authority employee getting into an altercation with some guy. "Some guy" pushed him to the ground and walked away. The employee very slowly (he was quite obese) rose to his feet, pulled a gun, walked after the guy, and then shot 14 times hitting him 3 times. In short, he murdered the guy on video in the middle of a crowded stat…

>"If someone seems irrational, it's because you don't understand the person" "Thats not true, because I didn't understand why somebody did something, so he must be irrational."

Who said I didn't understand why the guy shot him? I certainly didn't.

>To answer hard questions quickly like that, your brain has a trick: it doesn't actually answer THAT question, but secretly gives the answer to a different question, that merely looks a lot like the original question. In this case, I suspect your brain is actually answering: "If I had an altercation on a crowded station, and somebody pushes me to the ground, WOULD I slowly get up, draw a gun, and shoot the guy 14 times?" The answer is no, so the 'answer' to the question is this guy being rational is also 'no'.

Uh, no that's not what I did.

>I personally don't know what the circumstances are, but I do at least admit, that in the infinite amount of possible circumstances there are at least a couple which allow for a sane/rational person to shoot somebody in broad dayligh

In this case there isn't.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#227
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If someone seems irrational, it’s because their shoes are so different from any that you’ve been in. You simply have never experienced anything like their life (because if you did, you’d be like them). I disagree with this. As an example, a video came out the other day of a Chicago Transit Authority employee getting into an altercation with some guy. "Some guy" pushed him to the ground and walked away. The employee…

You can be 100% rational but 100% wrong. A computer is 100% rational but whether the output is right or wrong depends entirely on its input. I make this distinction because if you want to change someone's mind or behavior, assuming that they are irrational is a non-starter. You won't make any progress. Once you get past that, you realize that they are actually being rational and that there are deeper obstacles that n…

>You can be 100% rational but 100% wrong. A computer is 100% rational but whether the output is right or wrong depends entirely on its input.

Yes, but people are not computers. They are, at times, driven by emotion and impulse.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC a tenet of developmental psychology that the worst thing for children is neglect - it's worse than abuse (and that isn't downplaying abuse in any way), because the abused child is getting attention. Children are absolutely dependent on their parents for survival (literally, food, water, shelter, protection, safety), for understanding the world, for learning. Neglect, the absence of parenting, is terrifying.

I was neglected and it has made things difficult for me. I learnt how to smile by practicing with a mirror and have no reference point for what a genuine relationship is. Never been hugged and still am terrified of getting touched affectionately. Anti-social and feel lightyears behind my peers in social aptitude. Don't know how to respond to affection and tenderness and have responded with angry outbursts in the past…

It's heartbreaking to here, and to think of, including imaginging the child. FWIW, from some random person on the Internet with no expertise, and without knowing you at all ... one of the best things I've learned is to start with the relationship with yourself. Have compassion for and love yourself (in a healthy, not a narcisisstic way). That's a relationship you always will have, no matter what happens outside, and as it grows you can extend that love to others. Maybe that's helpful (and maybe you've already heard that!).

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"to become who they are and want to to become no matter what that is" That sounds like a circular definition.

I believe there is a true self in all of us. Whatever that is, and it might change. We have no way to tell what that is, so. Discovering this is what personal development is about. This development should be as unhindered as possible. One, rather obvious, example is trans-gender people. That's the "who / what you are" part. The become what you want part is ranging from career choices to the kind of person, besides id…

What do you suggest when the true self is something like "serial killer" or "violent abuser" or "drug addict"?

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry couldn't let this one go: I hope you've internalized completely that it wasn't your fault - and you where just a kid trying to survive - again not your fault.

My roommate who was athletic and feminine looking had it a lot worse. It was the first time I had seen any type of sex. It was violent and non consensual, and he was devastated, never the same. I felt faint there was a sense of shock. They involved me (with force) so that I couldn’t talk about it and they stopped me leaving the room. Then they said that’s part of the culture and he’s one of them now or something to t…

> Then I really couldn’t talk about it, because my previous silence made me responsible.

You were a kid in an impossible situation; you weren't and aren't the responsible party. Most adults couldn't handle that situation, and the adults there didn't handle it at all. Your story and your roommate's story are just heartbreaking to hear. It makes me angry at the adults and, though I try to remember that they are conditioned the same experiences, at the attackers.

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