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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#121

Post by whimsicalism »

Loughla wrote: post #83
thescriptkiddie wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much taking the SAT multiple times plays a role. Personally I took it at least three times, and my score improved each time (don't remember by how much).

Which is also tied to socioeconomic status. If you can pay, your score will go up the more you take it, according to my experience, and the college board. If you can't pay, you take it the one time it's offered for free if your school offers that. Then you get what you get.

I think we should learn from the gaokao and only test once a year. The fact that you can pay for more tests (and pay more for "score choice") is the most unjust part of the whole thing.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#123

Post by deanCommie »

rossdavidh wrote: post #48
Animats wrote: post #20

All MIT students, regardless of intended major, must pass two semesters of calculus, plus two semesters of calculus-based physics, as part of our General Institute Requirements. ... There is no path through MIT that does not rest on a rigorous foundation in mathematics, and we need to be sure our students are ready for that as soon as they arrive. For a period in the 1980s-1990s, you could argue that calculus was not…

True, but the usefulness of calculus to a working developer in ML is pretty marginal. The difference between different ML algorithms for hill climbing or gradients, is orders of magnitude less than the effect of having the right training data, formatted the right way. Statistics or data science is far more applicable to nearly any field on real-world programming. But, you know, like Latin in the 19th century was alwa…

> Latin in the 19th century was always still useful to one's education,

Was it? Or was it perpetuated by a community that happened to already know it and so they leveraged it?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#125

Post by synergy20 »

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7
paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

Being a poor student myself, the EC is way more expensive and challenging for poor families(can not afford those at all), comparatively, SAT/ACT is actually much easier, a few books and keep bugging teachers can carry a long way at extremely low-cost. Comparing to EC's cost(and time), SAT/ACT mentor(online or offline) is still fairly affordable.

Living in internet era, I am jealous that nowadays 'poor' students can find so much resources online, most for free, even MIT courses! All you need is an ordinary computer and maybe internet access, which are quite affordable for nearly all families in US.

I will vote up for SAT/ACT and vote down on those EC from a socioeconomic perspective if I have to pick one.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#126

Post by dijit »

Psyladine wrote: post #106
dijit wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsure if I buy this. I'm definitely not the person you describe, but the idea of standardised testing being equivalent across all factors just strikes me as being fundamentally untrue. Personally I am very lucky to test well; and I definitely buy the notion that people who test well in SATs may go on to do better in University, but the reasons are probably the same: freedom from worry about financial circumstances w…

>but the idea of standardised testing being equivalent across all factors just strikes me as being fundamentally untrue. What's your take on MIT's stance? our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing.

My take is exactly what I said.

The same factors that lead to success for SATs can lead to further academic success.

I believe that MIT is probably right, in fact, I'm quite certain of it. Many people will drop out of university or perform poorly than their peers for socio-economic reasons, the person working while studying will probably do worse than the person who just studies.

MIT wants the most graduates and especially the most successful graduates, so the institution is right to do this, but I do still think it's more inhumane than I'm personally comfortable with -- but this is part of why I live in Europe where university students in general are seen as an investment by the state and not so much a business to be optimised.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#127

Post by ghaff »

sjg007 wrote: post #49
paulmd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

Coaching and studying improves SAT scores. People learn the type of questions they do poorly on and can study to improve. The SAT is a test you can study for.

And there are books available to help with a lot of that. (And I actually agree with the point that doing some amount of test prep/sample tests is helpful. But it doesn't need to be super-expensive/time-consuming. I do understand that the playing field has probably upleveled over the decades but it's still probably as democratized as any such thing is.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#128

Post by xanaxagoras »

artful-hacker wrote: post #14

SAT scores correlate with IQ test scores. SAT is just a 'legal' thinly veiled version of IQ test.

So let's cut the shit then and just do IQ tests.

This is the best technical university in the world offering the best technical education in history. It's where the smartest minds learn foundational knowledge that will enable them to make amazing technological contributions to mankind.

Not everything needs to be a battleground for the boring diversity of skin color. It's actually important that we get the most qualified people in these seats.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#129

Post by MengerSponge »

sjg007 wrote: post #49
paulmd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

Coaching and studying improves SAT scores. People learn the type of questions they do poorly on and can study to improve. The SAT is a test you can study for.

The SAT is a test of your academic preparation, not Raven's progressive matrices. That you can study for it is not inherently a bad thing. Portions that are highly susceptible to coaching are bad, and that's why there aren't analogies any more.

If students learn the vocabulary and practice the math to do better on the test, at some point it just becomes the Key and Peele Heist sketch: "That's called a job!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgYYOUC10aM

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#130

Post by rg111 »

> as a result, not having SATs/ACT scores to consider tends to raise socioeconomic barriers to demonstrating readiness for our education

It all come down to me to what this point touches.

When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply know there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT.

When you don't have a test, you have to study all the year round, do all homeworks, be active members of math, chess, or debate club all the year round and win at least province-level competitions, play an instrument at the school band, be elected the class monitor, create social equity clubs, do social service and so on.

Which path do you think will be easier for someone from an impoverished, troubled background?

Is it easier to prepare for a test for three months or be a whole different person severely constrained by your background?

Whom does no-test policies benefit? The rich White student living in a gated community, or a Black/Hispanic person living in slum-like condition?

____

I have little first hand experience (was born in a middle-of-nowhere small town, but wasn’t truly poor), and a lot of second-hand experience. I know a lot of friends, acquaintances who moved up the socio-economic ladder just because test-score based admission policies existed.

The people who promote no-test policies are deluded ivory-tower dwellers detached from reality.

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