Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 1001 posts

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#71

Post by likpok »

sjg007 wrote: post #49
paulmd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

Coaching and studying improves SAT scores. People learn the type of questions they do poorly on and can study to improve. The SAT is a test you can study for.

The top link is a study that shows that the improvement is pretty marginal in practice.

It does miss something: in specific ethnic enclaves SAT coaching is much more effective, perhaps because of a culture of out-of-school schoolwork and teaching beyond SAT prep. Those enclaves aren't particularly wealthy either (if I recall correctly it was a Korean enclave). Even then we're talking 70 points -- not nothing, but also not a radical transformation.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#72

Post by [deleted] »

rossdavidh wrote: post #51
jordanpg wrote: post #43

Part of the problem I see with standardized testing is that the stakes are so high. Some fraction of the people out there just get nervous or have a bad day. Nothing about these high pressure situations really reflects anything important in the real world. I'm a law student now. In law school, your entire grade usually comes from one 3-4 hour essay exam. Much depends on luck, how well you slept the night before, and…

I can't comment on law, but back when I took the SAT and ACT (granted, it was a previous millenium) you could retake the test. The issue was, unless you were sick or otherwise in an abnormal state, you would usually get a pretty similar score the second time. They provide a few examples of old tests, so you know going in what your score is likely to be, thus you will know if it is likely to improve much if you take i…

[deleted]

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#73

Post by boringg »

sjg007 wrote: post #49
paulmd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

Coaching and studying improves SAT scores. People learn the type of questions they do poorly on and can study to improve. The SAT is a test you can study for.

I don't know many tests you can't study for especially tests that are run on an annual basis.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#74

Post by pooper »

sjg007 wrote: post #49
paulmd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

Coaching and studying improves SAT scores. People learn the type of questions they do poorly on and can study to improve. The SAT is a test you can study for.

In my personal experience, about seventeen years ago, retaking the test raised my score some 90 points (iirc) out of 1600, excluding writing section.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#75

Post by colinmhayes »

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #45
erdos4d wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counterargument, a fake ID is all that a rich person needs to put a smart kid in their place at the testing center. Those places are usually huge, nobody knows anyone, and if you flash a legit looking ID, you will have no trouble sitting the test. GPA and such require effort over years to game (and maybe the kid actually learns something from all that tutoring, who knows).

Sure. So, 2 things. 1) The solution to that is to improve security measures. Not to remove the SAT entirely. 2) It is significantly harder to find someone who can score well on the SAT and is willing to take the test for you compared to gaming GPA, extra curriculars, etc. I've heard of tons of instances of people hiring homework-help services, their dad paying $5k to get their extra-curricular club going, private ten…

> It is significantly harder to find someone who can score well on the SAT and is willing to take the test for you compared to gaming GPA, extra curriculars, etc.

Idk about that. I found people to pay me for taking the ACT for them through my alma mater's subreddit. Top schools are full of people who got 35/36, I'm sure there are plenty of other people who scored there and would be willing to take the standardized test for 10k too. In fact, in some ways it's easier to find someone to take the test for you than it is to find someone to boost your extracurriculars because you can structure the payout around the score obtained. I got 10k for a 36, 7k for a 35... no guarantees with tutors and coaches.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#76

Post by giantg2 »

foobarian wrote: post #59
giantg2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there really that many kids getting perfect scores? I got a pretty low/average score, but took the test early in junior year so I hadn't taken some of the more advanced math courses yet. I never took it again since I got into everywhere I applied to (didn't apply to ivy league, obviously). Seemed like most other kids I knew did similarly with the smartest kids maybe 150 points higher (2400 time-frame). Nobody I k…

I guess not exactly. But still looks pretty crowded at the top end: https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Harvard-SAT-score...

Looks like it's 1% between 1550-1600. I couldn't find stats for an actual perfect score. Saying it's crowded I guess is ok, but is a matter of perspective. Like the top 1% of income earners saying their yacht club is crowded. Maybe true, but only for a very small number of people who could choose to go somewhere else if they actually wanted to.

http://go.collegewise.com/how-many-people-get-a-perfect-sat-...

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#77

Post by scarmig »

Invictus0 wrote: post #62
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I took one of those expensive SAT prep courses and yes, I agree that those don't increase scores very much, the program I took was awful. However, I totally disagree that rich people can't game the SAT. I used to be a moderator at /r/SAT and /r/ACT on reddit. All of the questions and answers for all of the exams, including subject tests are known and published online. Both SAT and ACT routinely reuse exams from prior…

> And rich people have the luxury of more time to study, because they don't have to work second jobs or cook for their families or clean the house after school and have more services that can save them time.

Unlike tricks for getting into university like studying after school for classes, hiring private tutors, or taking extracurriculars like lacrosse or rowing, which are great levelers equally accessible to the rich and the poor.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#78

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

Animats wrote: post #20

All MIT students, regardless of intended major, must pass two semesters of calculus, plus two semesters of calculus-based physics, as part of our General Institute Requirements. ... There is no path through MIT that does not rest on a rigorous foundation in mathematics, and we need to be sure our students are ready for that as soon as they arrive. For a period in the 1980s-1990s, you could argue that calculus was not…

I don’t remember the details anymore, but my combinatorics class required calculus. Something to do with Taylor series.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#79

Post by diebeforei485 »

Invictus0 wrote: post #62
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I took one of those expensive SAT prep courses and yes, I agree that those don't increase scores very much, the program I took was awful. However, I totally disagree that rich people can't game the SAT. I used to be a moderator at /r/SAT and /r/ACT on reddit. All of the questions and answers for all of the exams, including subject tests are known and published online. Both SAT and ACT routinely reuse exams from prior…

What's great is /r/SAT and /r/ACT are available to basically everyone, even with a very slow internet connection. Extracurriculars, not so much.
Post reply on HN