Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles • Hacker News Board

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#61

Post by azinman2 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

erdos4d wrote: post #36

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

As a counterargument, a fake ID is all that a rich person needs to put a smart kid in their place at the testing center. Those places are usually huge, nobody knows anyone, and if you flash a legit looking ID, you will have no trouble sitting the test. GPA and such require effort over years to game (and maybe the kid actually learns something from all that tutoring, who knows).

How common is this? I would guess not very.

Either way, if you cheated your way into MIT, expect to fail out. The hand holding stops there.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#62

Post by Invictus0 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I took one of those expensive SAT prep courses and yes, I agree that those don't increase scores very much, the program I took was awful.

However, I totally disagree that rich people can't game the SAT. I used to be a moderator at /r/SAT and /r/ACT on reddit. All of the questions and answers for all of the exams, including subject tests are known and published online. Both SAT and ACT routinely reuse exams from prior years, and anyone who puts in enough time to study the old exams can do well on the exams. And rich people have the luxury of more time to study, because they don't have to work second jobs or cook for their families or clean the house after school and have more services that can save them time.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#63

Post by azinman2 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I personally went up 300 points with tutoring, and that was when it was out of 1600.

n=1

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#64

Post by smrtinsert » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

The current discussion I thought focuses around the idea that higher scores should just about guarantee acceptance due some fantasy notion of objective merit, and here they pretty much say that's not the case here:

> To be clear, performance on standardized tests is not the central focus of our holistic admissions process. We do not prefer people with perfect scores; indeed, despite what some people infer from our statistics, we do not consider an applicant’s scores at all beyond the point where preparedness has been established as part of a multifactor analysis

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#65

Post by brimble » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #13

globuous wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's surprising though, is that APs and similar exams are not enough. In the UK, I though they essentially looked at A Level results, which are much more representative of what you'll actually study at uni. But I guess both SAT/ACTs & APs must be a better measure that just APs. I just remember fucking hating studying for the SATs though. So boring. SAT IIs were somewhat fun to study for though. In France for instan…

tbh I thought APs were generally more difficult than actual classes at a high-level university (USAFA). And my high school's regular courses (granted a fantastic high school) were actually much more difficult than a state school's courses. That said, outside of admissions, I don't think I got academic value out of them. They were hard for the sake of being hard. I'd rather have taken the SAT or ACT any day. (also apr…

> And my high school's regular courses (granted a fantastic high school) were actually much more difficult than a state school's courses.

I went to a barely-known state university and was very surprised when some of my intro-level gen ed requirement classes mostly covered material I'd already seen in, and with a similar level of rigor to, junior high school. And my junior high and high schools were nothing special at all—at the higher end of performance in the state (so far as those measures are helpful, anyway) but just regular public schools in a state with overall mediocre-bordering-on-poor schools.

If I'd known that the first couple years of college weren't going to be harder than high school, and would have a lower total time commitment, hell, I'd have probably tried to go the drop out -> GED -> start college at 16 or 17 route. I wasn't gonna get into top-tier universities, anyway.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#66

Post by geraldwhen » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

artful-hacker wrote: post #33

gameswithgo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring perhaps similar to this push back against the SAT?

It's similar but it also brings in a challenging problem: coding tests costs candidates far more than it costs employers in terms of time. I am currently interviewing and two of the companies I am otherwise excited for sent take-home tests that just exhaust me, especially after a long day of otherwise productive work. I've got 12 years of experience under my belt but somehow great references and a killer resume aren'…

I do coding tests for the first interview. Nothing hard, just enough to do basic data modeling and writing a unit test. I also time cap to under an hour, and the internet is available as a resource.

This filters out most people.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#67

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

neovive wrote: post #57

notacoward wrote: post #3

This is just so beautifully written it brings a tear to my eye. It explains their rationale, points to evidence, acknowledges shortcomings or gaps in knowledge, and shows empathy for those affected. Worth reading just for its pedagogical value, plus it's on an important topic near and dear to many hearts.

100%! As a parent of a child about to go through the college admissions process (with his heart set on MIT--of course), I want him to read this particularly for the later part of the article: "...you are also not your MIT application..." The acceptance rate is so low, that it should not be used as a measure of self-worth and accomplishment.

I'm a technologist who wanted to attend MIT but, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this thread, didn't make the cut. I've still had the opportunity to work for the US federal government, unicorn startups, and a detector team at the LHC. As you said, "The acceptance rate is so low, that it should not be used as a measure of self-worth and accomplishment.", and enjoyable, meaningful work can still be accomplished without the MIT experience (although if they get in, also good, I wish them well and hope they're accepted).

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#68

Post by balls187 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

> The NACAC did a study on this and they found that average gains of test-prep students is ~30 points (this was when the SAT was 2400 points).

When I took the SAT it was only 1600 (pre 2400), and SAT prep did in fact help scores significantly.

Back than, the test was designed not for scholastic aptitude (as it's name suggests) but instead to guarantee a standard distribution of scores.

It's been a long time since I cared about the SAT's so I assume once the word got out that the test could be gamed, the people behind it updated it.

> It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT.

Rich students don't need to game anything. They simply get admitted because their family name is on a building.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#69

Post by thescriptkiddie » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I wonder how much taking the SAT multiple times plays a role. Personally I took it at least three times, and my score improved each time (don't remember by how much).

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#70

Post by hiq » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 5:29 PM UTC

shakezula wrote: post #26

artful-hacker wrote: post #14

SAT scores correlate with IQ test scores. SAT is just a 'legal' thinly veiled version of IQ test.

> SAT scores correlate with IQ test scores. Do you have a source on this?

You can look for "intelligence" on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT. From memory, Human Intelligence by Earl Hunt has plenty of references as well if you're into this topic.