Maybe you should do less 'work' • Hacker News Board

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#31

Post by almost_usual » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #29

almost_usual wrote: post #21

I think most engineers who always search for tasks and work long hours are dealing with some form of anxiety or imposter syndrome. If management hasn’t brought up any performance issues and you’re anxious about your job you need to talk to someone. You’re on the road to burnout.

Managers and senior engineers should be responsible for making them feel better in these situations. Having a support group of peers is also really helpful. If you reach Senior level ranks and continue to suffer from these feelings though…

> If you reach Senior level ranks and continue to suffer from these feelings though…

They need to consult a therapist because they’re likely dealing with anxiety disorder.

If someone truly enjoys working 12 hours a day and weekends constantly then I suppose it’s fine.

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#32

Post by 0des » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

tnzk wrote: post #17

0des wrote: post #5

Getting my task completed at my own pace makes me feel good. Often that is fast and on time. In my heart, when I touch the keyboard, I feel like a greyhound dog with a little Bob Ross afro - it can be a race, a competition, but it is also an expression of my art. This article makes me feel bad because in the authors world, people like me are relegated to worker bee monkies trying to please the bossman due to patholog…

> Doing my tasks diligently and in a timely manner affords me more time to relax, review what I have created, and enjoy it rather than drag myself to the next task. This looks like what exactly the author says in the article to me

To a high performer the tone of this article is a shot across the bow.

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#33

Post by pm90 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

ascar wrote: post #30

This reads a bit like deliberately aiming for Parkinson's law. "Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion." However, I agree to some extent. I'm especially opposed to the concept that there should be 8 productive hours in a day. I sincerely believe that this is for most people not possible in creative knowledge work, which includes software engineering. So, if you have 5 productive hours of eng…

100% agree.

Let’s be clear though: you may need 4 hrs but sometimes you may need 12. Creative professions can be that way. Reaching an understanding that both can happen and accepting that fact is important.

To a certain extent, it’s just recognizing the reality of what actually happens today anyway, rather than trying to fit into the 8hour workday concept.

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#34

Post by Forgeties79 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

ascar wrote: post #30

This reads a bit like deliberately aiming for Parkinson's law. "Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion." However, I agree to some extent. I'm especially opposed to the concept that there should be 8 productive hours in a day. I sincerely believe that this is for most people not possible in creative knowledge work, which includes software engineering. So, if you have 5 productive hours of eng…

Honestly I feel like we could take it a step further. Most people are not going to put in five real hours of work every day either. Which makes the eight hour workday in some ways all the more ridiculous.

20 hours a week is pretty much the ceiling in my experience beyond big crunch times, special events, etc. If people really stepped back and thought about how much time they spend screwing around at work I think they’d be surprised, like how many people were surprised to discover how many hours they spend on social media apps when screen time tracking was introduced in phones.

I worked in the film industry for several years on the Hollywood side before switching over to commercial. 12 to 14 hour workdays were pretty much the norm. When I flipped over to the more commercial side, our workdays typically ended at 8 to 10 hours. And let me tell you, the commercial productions were exponentially more efficient. We got more done per day by a large margin, no matter the scale or complexity compared to the films I worked on. When you know there is less of a threat threat of the company extending the hours, you tend to get things done in the time allotted.

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#35

Post by ArcMex » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

Being in tech has the advantage of me being knowledgeable enough to pursue tools and languages of interest that will benefit both my business and day job.

That is what I did. I learned web development and used those skills to do projects at work and for my clients on weekends.

Later on, I learned project management. Used those skills at my day job and made a consultancy killing as a PM for hire.

I feel privleged to have been in this position. So, yes, I do advocate for spending time increasing your value at work. But that time should also work for you outside of that day job.

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#36

Post by 0des » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #24

TacticalCoder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A bit off topic but as of late there is this creeping normalization of intentionally subpar or less optimized results I'm noticing in our industry but also general society. > When did we become so not only complacent but also discouraging of any genuine effort? And these same people are going to expect nothing short of the best of the best from surgeons / plane pilots / car manufacturers / etc. So they can slack of…

> surgeons / plane pilots All of whom have downtime and at least one (if not more) backup. Software developers typically don't (strict adherents to pair programming aside). They also spend company hours getting better at their craft, building professional ties. Just like the article suggests software developers do.

Are you the author?

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#37

Post by yahn00 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #26

vlovich123 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who establishes that sizing? I’ve yet to see anyone who can accurately estimate their own tasks let alone someone who can estimate that for others. In agile, I think a great time for reflection is between sprints. Also, I’m super fast but I’ll instead take frequent small breaks in the middle of work (read hacker news, write up documentation etc). There are other times to reflect than between tasks.

You decide as a team. Concepts like story points and processes like agile sprints are intended to create a more realistic estimate of the work a team can deliver. The process comes with tradeoffs; it won’t work for everyone. So then it’s up to them to bring it up during retrospectives and decide to either change the process or… not. It’s important to understand that working on a team means that you just don’t get to…

[flagged]

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#38

Post by alexashka » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

100% this, but let me add the why:

Most people don't want to do good work, they just want to get paid and fuck off. It is really hard to grok this because it is just so disappointing and demotivating.

Most people lie constantly, to appear as if they want to do work, as if they give a fuck - they are lying to your face.

Once you realize this much, once you come to terms with what most people are - the rest will fall into place.

Until you grok this, these sorts of posts will seem like cynical takes, like someone who doesn't want to work hard, who wants to be a free loader. No, these sorts of posts are cautionary tales that society is filled with free loaders and liars, so you need to tread with caution and know how to deal with these 'people'.

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#39

Post by horse90 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

I cannot disagree with the author given that modern companies are little more than an aggregation of short-term individuals each with her own agenda many of whom would happily backstab you in order to advance it.

Re: Maybe you should do less 'work'

#40

Post by ArcMex » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

cowanon4757 wrote: post #14

This is very solid advice. Once you become so productive that you don't need all of your working hours to do your job, you should spend that time on skill acquisition - either learning about something adjacent that you don't do daily or learn something that will be required for the next level (if that is your goal) This is the only sane way I have found to progress in a tech career. The daily and weekly learning real…

>This is the only sane way I have found to progress in a tech career. The daily and weekly learning really adds up too - in my experience this is the difference someone who has 10 years of experience and someone who has "2 years repeated 5 times"

I agree. Thankfully, my culture does not shun 2-3 year job spells on your resume. Typically, this is what I do. When I learn enough to do my boss's job, I leave. I am now at a point of running my own, small consultancy service. Only need a few more clients to finally quit my day job for good.