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Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

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Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

#281
post #155

When google got started, they indexed ~25 million web pages. Then they grew together with the web, compounding over ~30 years. Today, it’s totally possible for a single person or a small team to build a domain specific search engine that indexes 10s or even 100s of million documents. Building the index v0.1 that kind of working is not hard. But maintaining the index to handle countless edge cases is tedious and need…

Empirical question: Can any kind of cluster analysis result in identifying robust selected subject-domains/content-areas for search specialization, still allowing for good coverage with a set of these? This could fight what you identify as an exponentially difficult problem. It could also allow for selective marketing and mind-share.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

#282

Contrary to many posts here, I think that Google completely controls the quality of the results. The feeling is that quality has gone down because a lot of top ranked website are SEO ads filled websites. I think this is true and on purpose. Two years ago top results were very often Wikipedia, Stack overflow or reddit. Sending users to those websites is not profitable for Google. I also think that's why it's very hard…

I don't quite understand what you mean when you say "sending users to those websites is not profitable for google" - referring to Wikipedia, Stack, Reddit etc...

Organic search results only ever profit Google if they answer the user's question, because it makes that user more likely to use Google again and click an ad in the future. If a user searches something and the top result doesn't answer their question, then Google hasn't done it's job and the user is less likely to use Google again and therefore less likely to click an ad in the future.

Surely the most profitable option for Google is to answer people's questions quickly and easily, whether you think these questions are answered by Wikipedia instead of a business site targeted to answering that question is a different story.

I just don't understand how Google's goal of "answering people's questions" is somehow opposite to "providing quality" for users. I think for most of HN, they have a very narrow view that "quality" means antiquated wiki-type sites.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

#283
I had worked out some costs. If you want to build an index-based search engine that is at least competitive on coverage, if not relevance, it would cost you about $2B/yr for at least a period of 4 years just to boot things up. So, that is at least $8B of upfront investment. This is similar to the problem of if someone wanted to match TSMC on 5nm feb. This cannot be achieved by traditional VC funding and startup model.

Remember, search is not just web search. It includes vast array of things such as maps, images, videos, knowledge datasets, discussion groups, real-time news and so on. Each of these segments is an enormous effort on its own requiring massive capital investments. Relevance algos these days are mostly driven by thousands of tweaks, ML models and legions of rules. It’s a complex beast that takes thousands of PhDs and years to perfect. Even than performance is pretty subpar than most expectations. So, what chance do you have as a new entrant in same game? The key is that you don’t want to play same game if you want to win.

A lot of companies have came and gone announcing themselves as Google competitor and trying to play same game. Things like DDG survive only because they can lower the COGS by offloading real work to other people like Bing which itself is fine example of what you might be able achieve if you only had a tiny fraction of Google’s budgets. If you consider dollar for dollar capital investment, Bing is actually quite good.

This is not to say there will never be a viable competitor for Google search. I just don’t think it can be through the traditional framework of index serving. No one really knows what other alternatives can arise in future. One very possible thing is language models. If we can figure out how to scale up serving of massive language models that effectively “memorizes” whole index in them, they can provide quality, capabilities and experience that cannot be matched by simple index serving. If this is viable route, I think we are still at least 3-5 years away.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

#284
post #248
post #196

The internet is too different now to what Google (or any SE) was designed to index. Too much of the up-to-date high value information is posted onto semi-public channels. Like facebook groups, instagram posts, telegram channels, etc. At the same time, too much of the publicly available websites are becoming clickbait and mindless marketing drivel. Just try to research anything slightly obscure that has to be up-to-da…

> It'll never reach a SERP in the future. Why not ? A scrapper may not be able to find it, but we all have a Facebook account. You dont need an automated scrapper to create a search engine. Info can be manually curated or scrapped through web extensions

> but we all have a Facebook account

God no.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

#285
All the posts here suggesting that the thing that is needed is some technical advantage, or a business model, or a niche, are all true, but miss the point; a competitor that actually beat Google due to one or more of those "ingredients" would simply be acquired by Google, or crushed in the marketplace with due application (mostly fairly, prima facie) of Google's warchest (which may be inherently unfair).

Managing to grow enough in an unappreciated search niche while staying under the radar in order to better withstand that kind of eventual attention seems unlikely. Targeting a segment that Google has been burned on (like social search) may help, but that probably just draws attention from a different MANGAM.

Eventually, someone will be both smart and lucky enough to carve out some of the search space, but don't hold your breath, it is going to take so much luck it won't be soon, and may look accidental.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

#286
post #196

The internet is too different now to what Google (or any SE) was designed to index. Too much of the up-to-date high value information is posted onto semi-public channels. Like facebook groups, instagram posts, telegram channels, etc. At the same time, too much of the publicly available websites are becoming clickbait and mindless marketing drivel. Just try to research anything slightly obscure that has to be up-to-da…

Yandex gives good results on the first page[1] with tripadvisor and other community sites. Google I think got majorly messed up when they started doing "anti-misinformation" patches that down ranked forums and other community sites where people can freely post wrongthink. Yandex doesn't do any of that.

[1]https://yandex.com/search/touch/?text=how+to+get+from+Nairob...

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

#287

You can't be just a bit better than Google and you certainly can't be worse. It's very difficult to be better than Google, that's an enormous challenge unto itself. That's greater than a billion dollar problem just to get warmed up if you're talking competing with them at large scale. If you listened to HN, Google sucks and it's easy to produce a superior search engine because of how bad they are now. That's false; e…

> The next great search engine will emerge from a niche and conquer one segment after another from there.

Even if by some lucky circumstance Google doesn't become aware of the new kid conquering their beachhead, as they start down this expansion path Google will acquire them or throw resources at competing. A deliberate strategy of only going after segments that Google avoids (like social) almost inevitably attracts the attention of some other MANGAM.

Still, given enough dice rolls someone will eventually have a streak, but we'll be waiting a while for that to happen.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

#288
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if that were the only roadblock, I wish someone would take the top 10,000 Google queries and just manually curate them. Hire different interest groups -- outdoors, travel, cuisine, etc. -- and manually find the best hits buried deep in some subreddit. No fancy algorithms, just old-fashioned librarian-style research, but constantly updated with the latest findings and queries. Would happily pay for that... e…

The top 10.000 queries at Google are probably 99% brands, pop culture or current news things, one word or name only, that you would not care for at all. Have a look at the top 20: https://www.statista.com/statistics/265825/number-of-searche...

I remember one of the top queries we worked at one company with was the number of the US form to fill your taxes

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't there a Google competitor emerging?

#289
Bing and Yahoo (who is pulling from Bing) are supposedly competitors. The problem is that Google is kicking their butt. Even if Bing became more of a true challenger, Microsoft is doing much of the same, so just replacing one name with another. Most would agree that Microsoft doesn't have any more respect for user privacy and would trample (ban, shadow ban, violate, spy, sell date of) users just as much.

Probably the only hope is some type of peer to peer search engine, that actually catches on and works well.

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