Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech • Hacker News Board

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#11

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:24 PM UTC

h2odragon wrote: post #4

ContrarianBrit wrote: post #2

Conservatives increasingly emphasize freedom of speech, but are their arguments genuine? 'Though the attachment of some conservatives to freedom of speech is genuine, often reflecting Burkean elements of conservatism, I worry that conservative support for freedom of speech has weak foundations, many conservatives wielding the principle as a weapon against outgroups.'

I don't see how supporting freedom of speech can be a "weapon against outgroups". Perhaps he refers to incidents where censorship was sold under the wrong label, "War is Peace" bullshit has a long, bipartisan history after all.

The support of freedom of speech by conservatives is both selective, largely limited to issues they feel oppressed on, and temporary, likely to be dropped as soon as they have the upper hand.

Liberalism has freedom of speech as a core principle but liberals are now treated as hostile not only by conservatives but also the illiberal left.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#12

Post by ContrarianBrit » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:24 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #3

The way some people talk these days you'd think that freedom is the freedom to disable the fire alarm and lock the doors in a burning theater. (e.g. climate change and COVID-19 denialism) "Free speech" is so 1980s. Today it is all about protecting communication channels from spam, disinformation, revenge porn and other forms of coordinated disingenuous communications.

Whilst these are undoubted challenges, I also think that there are more traditional challenges to freedom of speech. As majorities within societies have accepted liberal ideas, liberals have become increasingly censorious, threatening the freedom of speech of conservatives.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#13

Post by ContrarianBrit » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #9

ContrarianBrit wrote: post #2

Conservatives increasingly emphasize freedom of speech, but are their arguments genuine? 'Though the attachment of some conservatives to freedom of speech is genuine, often reflecting Burkean elements of conservatism, I worry that conservative support for freedom of speech has weak foundations, many conservatives wielding the principle as a weapon against outgroups.'

The overdogs always censor, because they can, and the underdogs always fight for freedom of speech, because they must. I don't think their colors matter.

Completely agree

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#14

Post by PaulHoule » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:26 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #6

PaulHoule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservatives have embraced a campaign against "cancel culture" because it's one of the few things they offer that sells. However they are hot to ban "critical race theory" even though they struggle to define it.

Cancel culture itself, paradoxically, being exercise of free expression (vocal disapproval of socially repugnant things), suggests that perhaps claiming persecution is an authoritarian, anti-free-speech position. Ultimately most people are anti-free expression of some kind. Very few are actually ideologically opposed to censorship (public or private) of things they find unconscionable.

Free-expression cultism expands like a gas.

It's one thing to have a constitutional amendment that forbids jailing somebody because the government doesn't like what they say.

It's another thing to say that somebody has to provide you with a free printing press, that people have to read it, that communities can't protect themselves from harmful communications, etc.

Where does it stop?

Several times a week I flag a discussion on HN where somebody leads with how grievously wounded they feel because somebody downvoted their post. Free speech fetishism turns into a sense of entitlement that people are forced to not just read their dreck but we can't express disapproval of it. When are we going to be forced to grin and clap like idiots to appease their narcissism?

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#15

Post by nopenopenopeno » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #3

The way some people talk these days you'd think that freedom is the freedom to disable the fire alarm and lock the doors in a burning theater. (e.g. climate change and COVID-19 denialism) "Free speech" is so 1980s. Today it is all about protecting communication channels from spam, disinformation, revenge porn and other forms of coordinated disingenuous communications.

As long as the so-called “left” is against ideals of individual freedom, the so-called “left” is a complete joke.

Freedom of speech for working people, who have always been subject to the whims of the authoritarian workplace, has never been realized in the United States. Still, abandoning it as an ideal altogether, and nonsensically insisting its passé while inciting a war on “disinformation” in the same breath is utterly terrifying.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#16

Post by andrewclunn » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

Whichever group seeks to push its values on others via force or compulsion will find a reason to dismiss or vilify freedom of expression and speech. Then all other groups will band together to oppose that first group of would-be tyrants. Claiming that there's something psychologically distinct about one political party or another at an individual level (which goes beyond a mere snapshot or moment in time) is to see them as ideologically driven monoliths, when they are in fact hodgepodge collectives of various interest groups.

Conservatives will support freedom of speech so long as it is a winning strategy politically and they make a cultural space for those seeking to circumvent top down censorship. Blasting this approach as disingenuous is clear cut coping. If liberals want to champion free speech, then let them do so. People are flocking to conservative parties because the ostensibly liberal ones have given them no other option. Don't blame the conservatives, even if you think this is opportunistic. Instead get your own house in order and be glad that oppositional politics provides enough incentives to ensure at least one party will champion the cause for freedom of expression, regardless of the ideological justifications they use to get there.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#17

Post by PaulHoule » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:32 PM UTC

ContrarianBrit wrote: post #12

PaulHoule wrote: post #3

The way some people talk these days you'd think that freedom is the freedom to disable the fire alarm and lock the doors in a burning theater. (e.g. climate change and COVID-19 denialism) "Free speech" is so 1980s. Today it is all about protecting communication channels from spam, disinformation, revenge porn and other forms of coordinated disingenuous communications.

Whilst these are undoubted challenges, I also think that there are more traditional challenges to freedom of speech. As majorities within societies have accepted liberal ideas, liberals have become increasingly censorious, threatening the freedom of speech of conservatives.

I'll grant that there is a small army of blog posters who write a blog post every day alleging this. It might even have a kernel of truth.

In that same day my spam filters caught 80 junk emails and I deleted another 20. If you own a cell phone you probably received multiple robocalls and junk texts in that time frame.

The fossil fuel industry has mounted a coordinated attack against our communication infrastructure and intellectual apparatus since the 1980s. to stop or delay a response to human-initiated climate change. If it leads to human extinction this will dwarf every other crime in human history.

So in a time when thousands of blog posts complaining about "cancel culture" get written every day I don't want to hear about it.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#18

Post by nopenopenopeno » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #10

Is this really new? It seems subgroups of either side have selectively supported free speech based on whether they agree with the message.

It is new. Historically, the left aggressively defended its opponent’s right to freedom of speech and assembly on the understanding that legalized limits on free speech will ultimately be used against the left more than it will be used against the right.

An often cited American example is the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members to speak freely and assemble.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html

The real story is that the historical left no longer exists.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#19

Post by PaulHoule » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #15

PaulHoule wrote: post #3

The way some people talk these days you'd think that freedom is the freedom to disable the fire alarm and lock the doors in a burning theater. (e.g. climate change and COVID-19 denialism) "Free speech" is so 1980s. Today it is all about protecting communication channels from spam, disinformation, revenge porn and other forms of coordinated disingenuous communications.

As long as the so-called “left” is against ideals of individual freedom, the so-called “left” is a complete joke. Freedom of speech for working people, who have always been subject to the whims of the authoritarian workplace, has never been realized in the United States. Still, abandoning it as an ideal altogether, and nonsensically insisting its passé while inciting a war on “disinformation” in the same breath is ut…

We didn't start the war against spam, disinformation, revenge porn, etc.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#20

Post by nopenopenopeno » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #19

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the so-called “left” is against ideals of individual freedom, the so-called “left” is a complete joke. Freedom of speech for working people, who have always been subject to the whims of the authoritarian workplace, has never been realized in the United States. Still, abandoning it as an ideal altogether, and nonsensically insisting its passé while inciting a war on “disinformation” in the same breath is ut…

We didn't start the war against spam, disinformation, revenge porn, etc.

I don’t understand. Who is “we”?