The multiple download buttons is not a dark pattern to prevent you from downloading your data, it’s just bad UX, it’s a feature you add to check a legal box and it doesn’t get priority for usability. Probably someone just shrugged, this is good enough and moved on. They should definitely give you it all in one zip file but “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by a developer rushing to get som…
Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
11–20 of 193 posts
Re: Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
#12The full, complete set of tedium the author describes is: * Navigate through a handful of pages. * Scroll to the bottom of a menu. * Click an email confirmation link. * Wait 19 days. * Click 74 download links. That last part is pretty dumb! But it's also the only thing that seems remotely tedious, and I'm not sure where at any point he'd be confused. The author implies some sort of issue with the 19 day waiting perio…
It's not just dumb, the whole process is at the edges of the law. Art. 12 GDPR mandates "intelligible and easily accessible form", which navigating through a number of pages, wait times and finally a 74-link download is certainly not fulfilling.
The gold standard, for what it's worth, is a direct link from the privacy policy page in the section that details GDPR subject rights to the page that provides the download - basically, three clicks in total.
> but it seems entirely plausible to me that many of the datasets being requested have "ask an engineer to run through this long manual process" as a dependency.
Which is ridiculous for a company at Amazon's scale and again at the edges of legality - Art. 12 GDPR mandates "without undue delay" and the one month is clearly meant as an upper bound here, not as the regular case.
That is the problem with American companies and also the US government: they all default to hoard data in warehouses and make use of it later, and completely ignoring that all the data they hoard must also be made accessible to the people it's related to.
Re: Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
#13The full, complete set of tedium the author describes is: * Navigate through a handful of pages. * Scroll to the bottom of a menu. * Click an email confirmation link. * Wait 19 days. * Click 74 download links. That last part is pretty dumb! But it's also the only thing that seems remotely tedious, and I'm not sure where at any point he'd be confused. The author implies some sort of issue with the 19 day waiting perio…
Re: Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
#14> It’s a bit like if you have a stalker who’s been shadowing you around, meticulously documenting everywhere you go, everyone you talk to, and everything you do, who’s now handing you a form to fill out if you want to see the boxes of files they’ve been keeping on you. This has me thinking. I can get an injunction for a human stalker who's going after me at home, my workplace, following me wherever I go, etc. Accordi…
Because you clicked Yes on their EULA.
There's absolutely NO agreement with shadow profiles.
And on to your EULA excuse - show the court that:
1. That YOU accepted a EULA
2. That the EULA was even presented
3. That the EULA agreed (if proven) is the same one withe the onerous terms
4. That the user didn't revoke permissions (affirmative consent is a thing)
Re: Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
#15The multiple download buttons is not a dark pattern to prevent you from downloading your data, it’s just bad UX, it’s a feature you add to check a legal box and it doesn’t get priority for usability. Probably someone just shrugged, this is good enough and moved on. They should definitely give you it all in one zip file but “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by a developer rushing to get som…
Re: Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
#16Re: Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
#17The full, complete set of tedium the author describes is: * Navigate through a handful of pages. * Scroll to the bottom of a menu. * Click an email confirmation link. * Wait 19 days. * Click 74 download links. That last part is pretty dumb! But it's also the only thing that seems remotely tedious, and I'm not sure where at any point he'd be confused. The author implies some sort of issue with the 19 day waiting perio…
I very much doubt that there is any human interaction on the Amazon end of this workflow. What seems more likely is that because this doesn't generate revenue it gets the minimum resources necessary to complete the request within some legally mandated time frame. The request probably sits in queues for most of its life. If a court order requests these same data, I suspect that it can be produced in under 24 hours
Re: Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because you clicked Yes on their EULA.
I said facebook for a *very* specific reason: https://medium.com/@SpiderOak/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-pro... There's absolutely NO agreement with shadow profiles. And on to your EULA excuse - show the court that: 1. That YOU accepted a EULA 2. That the EULA was even presented 3. That the EULA agreed (if proven) is the same one withe the onerous terms 4. That the user didn't revoke permissions (affirmative consent is…
Re: Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
#19> Amazon at this point makes some intonations about how this email verification step is necessary because your privacy and security are the company’s top priority, though considering that when your data is available you’ll need to check your email anyway, it’s not clear how checking your email twice adds any security.
People can argue about whether email should be used for authentication purposes. But what is the alternate model suggested? From the formulation of the complaint, the author seems to suggest that it'd be better if Amazon did not decouple authentication and payload delivery.
Sending the payload (in this case, a load of personal data) to an email address without first checking whether the requestor is in control of the address is a horrendously terrible idea. I'm starting to wonder about the author's security chops.
> Though Amazon says that it will “provide your information to you as soon as we can,” “soon” is apparently meant to be interpreted on a monthly time scale, as the page further states that “usually, this should not take more than a month.” Though of course, “in exceptional cases, for example if a request is more complex or if we are processing a high volume of requests, it might take longer.” This protracted time frame forms an intriguing juxtaposition to the otherwise universal emphasis on speed that facilitates shopping on Amazon.
It's much easier to put information into various databases than it is to determine what databases contain information about a particular user, and present that data to the user in a secure, auditable manner.
For example, you have to make sure that the user gets all the information they asked for (which means you have to determine whether the information exists, and if it doesn't you have to log the nonexistance of the data, lest you be audited). And you need to make sure user doesn't get information about someone else (which has happened in the past).
Distributed systems are hard. It takes time to determine where all possible information could live. And you have to make sure you're providing the correct information. And do this flawlessly, every single time lest you open yourself up to bad press and potential fines. This all takes time in systems as large and distributed as Amazon.
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If the author is as knowledgeable in the security space as their byline suggests, I'm left to think that their incurious write-up is just trying to throw red meat at the 'We hate anything associated with Amazon' crowd.
For what it's worth, my team at AWS processes GDPR requests within 3-or-so business days. But we can only do that because there is a single data warehouse for our product/service.
Re: Getting my personal data from Amazon was weeks of confusion and tedium
#20The multiple download buttons is not a dark pattern to prevent you from downloading your data, it’s just bad UX, it’s a feature you add to check a legal box and it doesn’t get priority for usability. Probably someone just shrugged, this is good enough and moved on. They should definitely give you it all in one zip file but “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by a developer rushing to get som…
As far as never ascribing, if a company is super big and rich and would find it beneficial if people give up trying to do something because of bad UX I think it's a reasonable assumption that the bad UX is an example of a dark pattern. Otherwise this helpful concept to describe actual things that companies do to tire out users and get them to relent in doing things the companies don't want done would have to disappear.
TLDR: If what Amazon is doing here isn't a dark pattern, what is?