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Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

drive.com.au

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Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#41

Post by seanmcdirmid »

barbs wrote: post #5

In Melbourne, quite often there are 4 lane roads (2 lanes in each direction) with tramlines in the inner two lanes going in each direction. At the tram stops, passengers need to walk across the outer lane to get to/from the sidewalk, so cars need to stop behind the tram even if they are in the outer lane and not directly behind the tram so that they can make way for passengers. Having moved here from Sydney a few yea…

Tesla autopilot isn’t available in Australia, so probably not. Also, isn’t autopilot just for controlled access highways, unless they were using a beta?

Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#42

Post by viraptor »

jpmoral wrote: post #27
viraptor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it fairly easy to pick out young people from Asia who are recent immigrants based on (...) racial stereotypes. FTFY Not sure what people find wrong about this. Yes, a fashion change in immigrants sure happens for many reasons. But going the other way - from "I see a person" to "she's a recent immigrant" is harmful stereotyping because you will be wrong. Doing that under a post going from "probably a recent i…

I'm with you on the fashion bit but I'm a recent immigrant (to Australia, as it happens) and the driving culture here feels a lot saner than where I'm from. Being asked for bribes, ignoring pedestrian lights and crosswalks, queuing across and blocking intersections, etc. Is that a controversial observation?

No, that's not controversial. The controversial thought chain is: she looks foreign, therefore she is foreign, therefore she learned the bad foreign driving culture, therefore she ran from the accident. It may well be true! But those are assumptions posted only because of the photo / her name. If it was my photo, we wouldn't end up with this thread.

Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#43

Post by throwaway0a5e »

jaclaz wrote: post #40
ggm wrote: post #2

The run part: I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. They returned and handed themselves in to police at the scene. A lot of younger foreigners have no idea what to do in an accident and in their home economy can face retribution, extortion, sometimes at the hands of police. In Australia, you stay, you help the victim, you report the accident. That's the law. In theory all drivers should know this bu…

>In Australia, you stay, you help the victim, you report the accident. That's the law. I don't think Law is much different in any country, maybe in some countries it is not respected due to the possibilities of retribution/extortion you mention.

It's easy to make low effort quips about the letter of the law but we all know that even in the first world customary practice can be far more nuanced than the letter of the law. And the gap only gets wider from there.

Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#44

Post by _ph_ »

deepsun wrote: post #17
andrewinardeer wrote: post #4

> A hit-and-run incident in Melbourne yesterday could set a legal precedent for the use of autonomous driving technologies in Australia. There is no precedent to be set. If you are behind the wheel of a car you are responsible for it's operation. 'Autopilot' or not. And hard to say it was the autopilot's fault for driving off and returning to the police station two hours later.

Well, Mercedes takes legal responsibility for its Autopilot, unlike Tesla.

Very different systems.

First of all, the Tesla Autopilot is not full self driving. The Autopilot is an assistant system combining distance aware cruise control with lane keeping (autosteer) and lane changing. It always requires full driver attention.

The Mercedes system has gotten legally recognized as a level 3 system, which allows the driver to stop paying attention when the system is active and for that Mercedes takes legal responsibility. There is even an european law allowing for that. However, the Mercedes system has one big catch: it can be only activated on selected, mapped roads (interstate equivalents with lane dividers) and only up to 40mph speed.

Tesla FSD (full self driving) is a completely new system for autonomous driving. It is currently in a beta testing phase. Currently it also requires full driver attention and is available only to a subset of the customers as part of the testing. It is however designed to handle any traffic situation on any road.

Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#45

Post by auxfil »

Khaine wrote: post #33
ggm wrote: post #2

The run part: I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. They returned and handed themselves in to police at the scene. A lot of younger foreigners have no idea what to do in an accident and in their home economy can face retribution, extortion, sometimes at the hands of police. In Australia, you stay, you help the victim, you report the accident. That's the law. In theory all drivers should know this bu…

Ignorance is no excuse for not following the law

I hope you don't write software with that kind of logic. You cannot follow a law that you are ignorant of. The word you're looking for is "no defence". Even that is debatable, subject to the reading of relevant applicable laws. Let's leave laws to lawyers and judges, shall we?

Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#46

Post by paranoidrobot »

natch wrote: post #30
deepsun wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla puts way more marketing BS than others, so I naturally believe others more.

Tesla doesn't advertise. Tesla doesn't even have a PR department… they closed it. >Tesla puts way more marketing BS than others link? waiting…

There's an important distinction to be made: Tesla may not pay for advertising, but they do advertise. They also engage in marketing, too.

It might not look like your usual company's advertising or marketing, but it's there.

Their Youtube channel[1] is full of it. Watch this[2] and tell me that's not an ad. It's a perfect example of an advertisement.

They might not have a department that is called a PR department, but they do PR.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5WjFrtBdufl6CZojX3D8dQ

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9id7BSPttGs

Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#47

Post by herbstein »

amelius wrote: post #38
natch wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mercedes says they will only take legal responsibility "while the system is active." The system will deactivate and hand control (and liability) right back to the human just in the nick of time if it encounters any marginal conditions (stormy weather, presence of emergency vehicles, etc…). So it looks like just an attempt to one-up Tesla with a marketing gimmick.

It takes at least a few seconds for humans to take over; any judge will assume that much.

In fact, Mercedes give the driver a full 10 seconds of buffer from first alert to relinquishing liability.

Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#48

Post by natch »

clouddrover wrote: post #34
natch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla doesn't advertise. Tesla doesn't even have a PR department… they closed it. >Tesla puts way more marketing BS than others link? waiting…

Here are some of Tesla's advertised lies about full self-driving: - https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... - https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-ne...

- Nothing BS about the first link.

- The second one has been debunked repeatedly. Elon has predicted self driving dates (wrongly), not promised them. A prediction is not a promise.

Mercedes is two years late on this "promise" too if we're doing that. Sure, Elon has been making his wrong predictions for more years, but now Mercedes is copying him:

https://www.wired.com/2017/04/mercedes-promises-self-driving...

Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#49

Post by natch »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #46
natch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla doesn't advertise. Tesla doesn't even have a PR department… they closed it. >Tesla puts way more marketing BS than others link? waiting…

There's an important distinction to be made: Tesla may not pay for advertising, but they do advertise. They also engage in marketing, too. It might not look like your usual company's advertising or marketing, but it's there. Their Youtube channel[1] is full of it. Watch this[2] and tell me that's not an ad. It's a perfect example of an advertisement. They might not have a department that is called a PR department, bu…

Fair enough on the distinction between paid advertising and their own YouTube ad pieces. I don't see how this channel is "BS" as the OP's accusation, but I take your point on it being advertising.

Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent

#50

Post by natch »

deepsun wrote: post #31
natch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla doesn't advertise. Tesla doesn't even have a PR department… they closed it. >Tesla puts way more marketing BS than others link? waiting…

Sure, just one example: Tesla Truck presentation, by Elon: [1] With unbreakable windows (forbidden for safety, otherwise there would not be carjackings anymore). [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7atGkba-Z8

We shall see whether that was BS or not. The unbreakable windows part, yeah probably a bit of BS, but it doesn't rise nearly to the level of what other car companies put out. I mean… VW…

And Mercedes promised self driving taxis "in three years from now" back in 2017 so… Tesla is not alone is delivering this later than expected.

https://www.wired.com/2017/04/mercedes-promises-self-driving...

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