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Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

acesounderglass.com

11–20 of 68 posts

Re: Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

#11
post #9

...Falsifiable? The author uses a lot of words and seems to appreciate brevity, but isn't the entire article summarized by this one word?

Falsifiability is about grounding out in an experiment that can be performed. Epistemic legibility is a generalization of the concept, where the arguer highlights the cruxes of potential disagreement, and points to whatever evidence they feel is convincing--whether that's experiments you can replicate, official records, expert opinions, or their own introspection.

Re: Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

#12
post #9

...Falsifiable? The author uses a lot of words and seems to appreciate brevity, but isn't the entire article summarized by this one word?

I took it as more in the realm of information theory and less about hard science or even content.

Less about falsifiable or correct and "does this compile".

More "can I easily grok what this function is trying to do even if it isn't compiling".

I see this term as an attempt to define a precursor to "Cogent" or maybe it's an attempt to give "Cogent" a more formalized definition.

Re: Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

#13

I didn't see it mentioned, I think I "epistemic literacy" is the other side of the coin. I see examples of people demanding citations for reasoning that is part of a work, of people just not understanding something, or of only really being able to blindly follow based on province or authority without trying to reconcile back to what they know. If there is going to be a standard for legibility, there should be one for…

> I see examples of people demanding citations for reasoning that is part of a work, of people just not understanding something, or of only really being able to blindly follow based on province or authority without trying to reconcile back to what they know.

That’s a tricky one for me because I see a lot of utility in asking for sources:

a) Curiosity. Maybe I really want to know how this person came to believe what they did even if I’m pretty sure they’re wrong.

b) Challenge. A version of the Socratic Method, helping them learn through questioning their assumptions.

c) Learning. A genuine quest for knowledge, that perhaps might yield more unique or varied results than Google.

d) Depth. Possibly helping others in a public thread (or the author) realize that it might be an epistemically illegible argument requiring greater scrutiny, discussion or evidence.

I get that asking for sources can also be lazy or ill intentioned, but for the most part I don’t mind it.

Re: Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

#15
post #8
post #4

Superbly written and argued. Assessing an argument's Epistemic Legibility is a new tool in my toolbox for identifying weak arguments. > I expect having a handle with which to say “no I don’t have a concise argument about why this work is wrong, and that’s a fact about the work” to be very useful. This was my favorite quote from the article

I’ve seen “Source?” used as a concise critique against what I consider to be epistemically illegible arguments.

Yeah, but P(Valid Critique | Source) is low. For instance, behold as I use it illegitimately against you: "Would you mind linking to where you've seen this use of 'Source?'?"

Besides, legibility is about the argument - it doesn't make sense to talk about a "Source". The source is me. I am the one making the argument.

Statements of fact aren't arguments. "There is a giant octopus besieging NYC right now". There's no argument there. It is merely a statement.

An example legible argument is:

- There is likely a lot of squid ink covering NYC

- This is likely because there is a positively colossal squid creature floating above NYC at the moment

- Squid creatures (colossal or otherwise) discharge ink when attacked

- We are attacking this humongous monstrosity

In fact, "Source?" works better against a legible argument since you can identify which part needs the extra stuff. This argument is fairly legible and is practically just syllogisms. It's merely the case that a premise is wrong - something which you can conclude by asking for the source for a crucial premise.

With an illegible argument, you could debunk the source of one of the claims and still be unable to trace its impact on the conclusion.

For instance:

It's probably raining in NYC right now because it's kind of the conditions that would cause rain if you know what I mean. But there's also this squid creature in the air. It rains when there's squids. Here, read this article about colossal squid ink rain. We all know that squid rain is a thing.

Re: Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

#16

Is this author well known in some community? Their writing is superb, and I have to ask who this is.

This author is certainly known in the rationalist-ish ("less wrong", Scott Alexander etc.) community; whether or not they'd consider themselves a member I don't know. Not all rationalist posts are that well written, but there are certainly more I've enjoyed like that.

I think the author might have heard of Seeing Like a State and the idea of legibility through the book review on slatestarcodex, for example.

EDIT: from their about page, "Before this, I was a software engineer first at a few FAANG companies and later at start ups." I guess that counts as another community of sorts?

Re: Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

#18
post #11
post #9

...Falsifiable? The author uses a lot of words and seems to appreciate brevity, but isn't the entire article summarized by this one word?

Falsifiability is about grounding out in an experiment that can be performed. Epistemic legibility is a generalization of the concept, where the arguer highlights the cruxes of potential disagreement, and points to whatever evidence they feel is convincing--whether that's experiments you can replicate, official records, expert opinions, or their own introspection.

Ah, refutable.

Re: Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

#19
post #3

“That’s gibberish” probably could be better said as “that goes against all factual truths that I’ve learned.”

No, "that's gibberish" means "I can't tell whether it goes against factual truths, because I can't tell what it's actually claiming."

[Edit: And one of the marks of at least some kinds of BS is that it tries to obscure what is actually being claimed, so that you can't disprove it.]

Re: Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

#20

I didn't see it mentioned, I think I "epistemic literacy" is the other side of the coin. I see examples of people demanding citations for reasoning that is part of a work, of people just not understanding something, or of only really being able to blindly follow based on province or authority without trying to reconcile back to what they know. If there is going to be a standard for legibility, there should be one for…

This is actually a huge pet peeve of mine; when people ask for a citation for reasoning, and then smugly declaring victory when no such citation is provided, as if you even could "cite" analysis.
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