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EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

politico.eu

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Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#261

Post by ensignavenger »

viccuad wrote: post #188
8fingerlouie wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> meaning outfits such as WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage will have to open up and interoperate with smaller messaging platforms The way i read it, they're calling for open standards, which can be a good thing. Sadly, open standards also slow down the development of new features, as everybody needs to be "on board" for new features to roll out. Take email (SMTP, IMAP, etc) as an example, where no major progr…

> The way i read it, they're calling for open standards, which can be a good thing. > > Sadly, open standards also slow down the development of new features, No. They are asking for endpoints and public APIs. Nobody is forced to adopt a standard, that is a fallacy you have just built (and has powered a tangential thread of 20 messages and counting.. debating something that is not in the topic). Services will be force…

Its not clear from the article what they are calling for- do you have a source?

But lets say you are right, and all that the affected messaging services have to do is provide an API- will the regulators require them to document this API (and if so, what standards will the documentation have to follow?) Will they complain if the API changes too rapidly? Will the API have to support tall of the same features as the messaging service?

As they say, the devils in the details, and right now I'm not seeing any details.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#262

Post by arunkant »

ericmay wrote: post #249
itg wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YOU live in America, Apple operates worldwide. And the USA has plenty of bills in the pipeline targeting the same issues. Apple won't have their cake and eat it too.

I think you missed the point, which was I don't care if Apple left the EU market over this, because I live in America where (at least for now) things will be how I prefer them. So saying "good, leave the EU" or similar doesn't really bother me... You're right that there are other bills in the pipeline. I think the user experience will be worse off because of them and we'll lose lots of ground on privacy and convenien…

> I think the user experience will be worse off

Two points

1. User experience is already bed. No access to game streaming services and many valid open source apps not available on iOS

2. User experience is not be the only matrix that matters. What about poor indie developer whose app is banned due to opaque App store rules. What about having control over device you bought with your own money

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#263

Post by merrywhether »

hrnnnnnn wrote: post #2

> Parliament also succeeded in convincing the Council of interoperability requirements for messaging services, meaning outfits such as WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage will have to open up and interoperate with smaller messaging platforms. For group chats, this requirement will be rolled out over a period of four years. This would be great. I remember using pidgin back in the day and it was really convenient…

I wouldn’t be surprised if the response was a Chrome-esque “drown the competition in feature velocity” approach. iMessage could add new features (with totally necessary payload shape updates) fast enough to prevent any integrations from working well and competing effectively. Throw in some EME-style approval-requiring binary blobs to enable decryption and a dash of CSAM-style regulation compliance and open vs closed won’t really matter (like we’ve seen on the web so far).

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#264

Post by Throwaway197401 »

hrnnnnnn wrote: post #2

> Parliament also succeeded in convincing the Council of interoperability requirements for messaging services, meaning outfits such as WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage will have to open up and interoperate with smaller messaging platforms. For group chats, this requirement will be rolled out over a period of four years. This would be great. I remember using pidgin back in the day and it was really convenient…

No post body was provided.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#265

Post by [deleted] »

ericmay wrote: post #177
m101010 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to understand how this is affecting you. Do you think that the existence of other App-Stores is reducing the quality of the apps in the Apple-Store?

Yes it will once it happens on iOS. Large companies like Facebook (not picking on Meta, just an easy example) really don’t want to follow Apple’s privacy guidelines, don’t want to ask users for permission to track their location, and don’t want to tell users what info they gather and how it’s used. Once Apple has to allow third-party app stores, many major software companies will either create their own App Store (gr…

[deleted]

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#266

Post by cabalamat »

hrnnnnnn wrote: post #2

> Parliament also succeeded in convincing the Council of interoperability requirements for messaging services, meaning outfits such as WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage will have to open up and interoperate with smaller messaging platforms. For group chats, this requirement will be rolled out over a period of four years. This would be great. I remember using pidgin back in the day and it was really convenient…

Should mandate interoperability for all social media.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#267

Post by ericmay »

arunkant wrote: post #262
ericmay wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the point, which was I don't care if Apple left the EU market over this, because I live in America where (at least for now) things will be how I prefer them. So saying "good, leave the EU" or similar doesn't really bother me... You're right that there are other bills in the pipeline. I think the user experience will be worse off because of them and we'll lose lots of ground on privacy and convenien…

> I think the user experience will be worse off Two points 1. User experience is already bed. No access to game streaming services and many valid open source apps not available on iOS 2. User experience is not be the only matrix that matters. What about poor indie developer whose app is banned due to opaque App store rules. What about having control over device you bought with your own money

Why not just buy a different product with different features then? Mobile phones have a lot of different features. Some have better cameras than others. Some have longer battery life, can fold, or come in different colors. Some have different operating systems. App stores/software isn't any different. The user experience on the Nintendo Switch is terrible. I can't play World of Warcraft of Halo on it at all! And why can't I watch Netflix shows through the Hulu app? Why does Netflix get to buy content and keep it on their Netflix store? At least the Apple App Store is free. I don't have to pay for access to apps.

> What about poor indie developer whose app is banned due to opaque App store rules

They'll just have the opportunity to get banned from more than one store I guess. Then once this indie developer decides its profitable to scam their customers they'll create their own app store and just install their software that way, bypassing any legitimate bans too.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#268

Post by macinjosh »

thow-58d4e8b wrote: post #93
mhitza wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every developer should try to understand GDPR to a basic level, as those basic principles are good enough of a baseline. Won't go into minutia, cause at the enterprise/large scale level you'll need a DPO (data protection officer) and follow stricter auditing practices (among other things). Second, cookie banners are unrelated to GDPR. They became mandatory years before the GDPR, and the level of intrusiveness is beca…

> websites don't follow the "spirit of the law" A perfect counter-example to people rambling about EU legislation - Wikipedia. Consistently in the top 10 sites in the world for 15 years, yet there's no cookie banner, no GDPR consent screen, no personal data hoarding, no dark patterns, etc.

Wikipedia doesn't need PII in order to operate so this is a terribly unfair comparison when you think of a service providing something more in depth than a wiki. They are also non-profit.

"Following the spirit of the law" is authoritarian non-sense. I can do whatever I want unless its illegal. If the law cannot or does not spell something out how is that the public's problem? We spend enough blood sweat and tears employing legislators and bureacrats. I am not going to also do their job for them.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#269

Post by oxplot »

sounds wrote: post #259
oxplot wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ignoring calls for openness for 15 years I very much want this to happen now. However I would not have wanted this 15 years ago when the platform was a baby and little was known on how to move it forward. Last thing you wanted at that time was layers of regulation and laws that would hinder the speed of development. 15 years is probably too long and this could have happened 5-10 years ago.

I suspect you already know that 44 years ago when Apple's system was a baby, it was what, today, you would call "open hardware." See the last two pages of the user manual for the schematics. [1] At that time, Apple's system needed to attract developers, so instead of a walled garden, the company did what they could to encourage interoperability. [1] http://apple1.chez.com/Apple1project/Docs/pdf/AppleI_Manual....

> you would call "open hardware."

You are confusing the "norm" at the time, with Apple specific decision to open up their hardware. At the time, a lot of consumer electronics shipped with their schematics, including TVs, Radios, etc. You cannot find a single TV today that ships with how to talk over its diagnostics port let alone schematics.

The Apple computer you're referencing was more like an of IC of today, both in complexity (many $1 ICs today are orders of magnitude more complex than that entire computer), and the skills expected of the user of the computer. Both of which would require one to have intimate knowledge of the inner working of the device to be able to operate and maintain it. Users of that computer were like hobbyist of today, buying an electronics kit and rest assured, electronics kits come with detailed manuals, schematics and more.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#270

Post by GuB-42 »

MezzoDelCammin wrote: post #258
GuB-42 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Signal? Moxie is strongly against it. Although the app and protocols are open, he doesn't tolerate third party clients on Signal official servers and he doesn't want federation. Even though I disagree, he has some good arguments. And if WhatsApp has to interoperate, why not Signal?

To quote the original article : "platforms with a market capitalization of €75 billion or turnover in the European Economic Area equal to or above €7.5 billion" I'm not sure what the current market cap for Signal is, but I'm fairly sure they don't have a turnover of 7+bn in the EU.

Ok, I didn't realize that. Signal may not even have a financial presence in the EU. In the US, according the Wikipedia, they have ~$20M in revenue, many orders of magnitude off...

It is also one of these weird non-profit + for-profit company mix, to which I don't know the effect it has. Anyways, the numbers are simply not there.

Ironically, if the law works as intended, making all major messaging platforms interoperable, if can make smaller players who don't want to join the club (like Signal) less attractive.

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