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On infinite ethics

handsandcities.com

11–20 of 28 posts

Re: On infinite ethics

#11
This was a hard read, and admittedly I didn’t finish it. I feel a little dumb.

I’m hoping someone smarter than myself can momentarily stoop down to my level and clear things up.

I wonder, must one strive to understand the mathematics of ethics to make ethical decisions? Am I able to optimise my decisions for universal wellbeing without being able to mathematically reason upon it?

Something I’m equally ill-equipped at is being present - aware of my real-time inclinations, motivations, and subsequent actions. As a result, I often make decisions which oppose ethical optimisation (or my understanding of it)

If I were to choose between the ability to mathematically reason on ethical matters, or to have the awareness to actually make (potentially misguided) ethical decisions, I’d choose the latter every time.

Is that wrong?

Re: On infinite ethics

#12
post #6
post #5

This is a really interesting topic but I'm offput by the verbosity of this essay. For example: > And whatever our credences here, we should be clear-eyed about the fact that helping or harming an infinite number of people would be an extremely big deal. Saving a hundred lives, for example, is a deeply significant act. But saving a thousand lives is even more so; a million, even more so; and so on. For any finite numb…

> I don't think a single person would believe otherwise, It depends. Saving "a hundred" or a "a thousand" lives seems "doable" by a normal person as a result of a conscious, "moral" act, saving "millions" devolves into messianism, and as such it's not the job of essays or of simple, logical human thinking to talk/write about it. I know that the author doesn't insist on that aspect but in real life quantitate differen…

With growing populations, I'm not sure trying to save a million lives is THAT special anymore. Definitely still fairly awesome, but not Messiah level awesome.

I think eg. President Zelensky (the buck stops with him for >40M souls) would be very surprised to learn of his sudden deification.

There are actually probably quite a number of rather less spectacular (eg. bureaucratic, military, logistics, sysop, ...) jobs where you might routinely touch 1M+ people these days, in some narrow but nevertheless (up to) life-critical ways.

This does mean one might need to take ethics into account in situations that seem far removed from the coal face, typically whilst pushing dusty papers around; lest you end up creating catch 22's for the people in the trenches.

Everyone has stories about things like unethical corporate behavior. At that kind of scale, it makes more sense to build systems (governments/corporations/foundations/smart mobs/...) that are somehow intrinsically ethical or at very least inspire ethical behavior in their members.

Re: On infinite ethics

#13
Near the start a discussion of if you should go on holiday, or save a life. Except there will be an infinite number of slightly different universes where, by going on holiday, you are given the opportunity to save a life. There will also be an infinite number of universes where your donation ends up causing the end of the world.

Once you consider every possible world and every possible outcome, happening infinitely many times, I would draw a different conclusion -- unless you have the power to effect the entire "infinite-verse", then anything you do becomes unimportant, as infinite+finite=infinite, so your contributions are lost in the wash.

Re: On infinite ethics

#14
I can recommend chapter XI What’s the most bullet-biting hedonistic utilitarian response we can think of for a relatively easy read. Chapters II to X would probably require much more upfront investment than I'm personally prepared to make - the TLDR was sufficient.

Re: On infinite ethics

#15
post #9

Ethics is about decisions, and most of the discussions about the "difficulty" of infinite ethics only work if you ignore that. (And so it's particularly frustrating that they didn't bother addressing our work pointing out why they are wrong: https://philpapers.org/rec/MANWIT-6 )

Did not finish reading either yet, but is this not addressed (without explicitly addressing your work) early on in the article? As I read their reasoning, even if the by far most likely outcome is that your conclusion holds in practice, there is a non-zero probability that assumptions are wrong in a way that allows for infinite causality, and therefore (by assuming their infinite-fanatical stance), attempting that is…

If you want to use the concept of "probability" to deal with reality, you better decide first if the reality offers infinite payoff/risk. If it does, your tool (the naive probability) is inadequate and quite easily broken, as you just have demonstrated.

The tool will sway to 100% and back to 0% on like a broken compass, depending on which infinities you thought about this very minute.

Re: On infinite ethics

#16

This formidable essay is beautiful and pure Kierkegaardian tragedy at the same time. I feel how much the author wants to extend kindness to the infinite. Yet we live in a world so atomised and self-objectified that most of us fail to apply ethics to a few loved ones, to even one person, ourselves. Real ethics is finite, embodied, pragmatic, messy. It's the shit, piss, blood and mud of battlefields, caring for the old…

What a punch!

> This is why we invented religions, and will continue to reinvent them in ever shifting guises.

Something off about this statement, though. Like out of place in some otherwise wise observations.

Man has our escapism but it isn't at all uniquely circumscribed by "religion".

Unless you define, circularly, "religion" to be man's escapism.

I'm trying to avoid some apologetics over some theology or something. For myself, I'm an apostate. Most religions people would call me an atheist, but I sense that most atheists would reject my membership application.

But what I see in essays like this is a limited human attempting the impossible task of reconstructing some meaning to existence.

The task being impossible b/c we can no more reconstruct meaning than we could reconstruct our, say, biological selves. That was the job of eons of evolutionary process.

Which is what "religion" hosts, encodes... along with crufty theology, escapism, etc.

What you seem to be pitching is this "Just be good" philosophy that for some reason I keep seeing show up on T-shirts the past couple of years. But this is not a substantive philosophy.

When I left religion in my early 20s, in retrospect I feel I threw the baby out with the bathwater not realizing that there was deep, evolved meaning and framework amid the mounds of garbage. That remained even when I thought I was rejecting all of it, the escapism, dogma, fear, etc... In other words I couldn't discard whatever was encoded in myself.

But I worry now I'm not giving my kids what I'd gotten and took for granted. Worry now that a whole generation is not getting it. That we're going to be left with "Just be good" - and otherwise these desperate, searching, doomed essays from people who realize that "Just be good" is not good enough but who have no heritage from the past that hosts pretty much all we could expect to have.

Re: On infinite ethics

#17

Near the start a discussion of if you should go on holiday, or save a life. Except there will be an infinite number of slightly different universes where, by going on holiday, you are given the opportunity to save a life. There will also be an infinite number of universes where your donation ends up causing the end of the world. Once you consider every possible world and every possible outcome, happening infinitely m…

This is where measure theory comes in. In spite of the fact that the interval [0, 1] is uncountably infinite, as is every possible subinterval, we can still coherently talk about some event spaces being more probable than others.

Re: On infinite ethics

#19

I couldn't understand why "If you donate, this is strong evidence that they all donate, too" was true. Wouldn't there be infinite choices made otherwise?

The "strength" of the evidence is arguable, but it is definitely evidence. If the risk calculus you did ended with you choosing donating, then you know that the probability is non-zero that each incarnation of you would choose to donate. But not "strong" evidence -- this is flipping a coin once, getting heads, and saying you have strong evidence that the coin is biased towards heads. You have evidence, but I'm not going to stake much on it.

As for the infinite aspect, infinity doesn't mean uniform - there are an infinite number of odd numbers but none of them are even.

Re: On infinite ethics

#20

Near the start a discussion of if you should go on holiday, or save a life. Except there will be an infinite number of slightly different universes where, by going on holiday, you are given the opportunity to save a life. There will also be an infinite number of universes where your donation ends up causing the end of the world. Once you consider every possible world and every possible outcome, happening infinitely m…

This is where measure theory comes in. In spite of the fact that the interval [0, 1] is uncountably infinite, as is every possible subinterval, we can still coherently talk about some event spaces being more probable than others.

Agreed -- I usually phrase this as "there are an infinite number of odd numbers but none of them are even".
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