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EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

politico.eu

131–140 of 351 posts

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#131
post #110

This has to extend to business as well as consumer use. Give people the power to choose technology in all contexts. That's all we need. You use Zoom, Teams, Facebook or whatever you like, I'll use my Jitsi or home grown WebRTC solution. Fairness can be that simple. But interoperability legislation can only go so far to fixing things because we also need to tackle: - Regulator and institutional capture by vendor lobby…

> You use Zoom, Teams, Facebook or whatever you like, I'll use my Jitsi or home grown WebRTC solution. Fairness can be that simple. that's naive. the problem is that we moved away as an industry from that model for 2 specific reasons: - widely used standards take decades to change just slightly, or never (see SMS, email) - interoperability means either lowest common denominator or a huge cost to keep things interoper…

> that's naive.

Please attack my arguments, don't make aspersions as to my disposition.

> the problem is that we moved away as an industry

Please don't try to define the narrative from a parochial viewpoint. No. we didn't. Some of us did. And those few have arguably done a great deal of damage to "the industry".

> widely used standards take decades to change just slightly, or never (see SMS, email)

It's arguable that they _should_ take a long time to adapt, because stability is also a value. That doesn't preclude the emergence of new and better standards which have a fair chance of adoption in the market for protocols. Interoperability would be a key factor in their success of course.

> interoperability means either lowest common denominator

I see no justification for this statement. There are many factors that portend lowest-common outcomes, like efficiency, reckless engineering in pursuit of fast time to market... but interoperability isn't one of them.

> or a huge cost to keep things interoperable

This is what you're really shooting at isn't it? Less profit for people who want to "move fast and break things" and get out when they're done extracting. I prefer to build lasting things and treat technology as a part of long-term culture. It's just a personality type thing.

> horrible for innovation

Advancing dichotomy between standards and innovation is simply disingenuous. The entire existence of the internet is a counterexample.

> killer for funding, both pull money away from other things.

Money.

> all for giving "jit.si" or your "home grown WebRTC solution" a reason to exist.

No. Everything else you've said is about differences of value and philosophy. Fair enough. But on this point you are missing some fundamental understanding of technology.

It is not "all for" my choice. Choice is a means not an ends. Choice is what underpins the drive for innovation, but ultimately there is telos (purpose) in technology beyond making profit. Those ends include resilience, opportunity, reliability, hybrid vigor of hetrogenous systems to name a few. Naivety is having a partial or immature understanding of a bigger picture, though I would not accuse you of that of course.

respects

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#132
post #97

> EU officials have agreed on landmark rules I'm not sure what this means in terms of the timeline. Will it be voted for in European Parliament and if yes, when? To what extent this may be changed in the final edition? And if it's adopted as a law, how much of a grace period will the companies have?

lots of confusion in this comment. > Will it be voted for in European Parliament and if yes, when? the European Parliament only votes on a text. It cannot take decisions by itself. it can only present a voted upon text to the EU Council. and even then it's not a given it will become a directive. > And if it's adopted as a law There is no such thing as a "law" in the European Union. (Simplified) The EU has directives…

>If it passes, the text will become a EU directive which needs to be incorporated into national law by the member states.

The DMA is a regulation, not a directive btw.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#133

I pray that this, especially the interoperability requirements comes through not only with teeth, but with claws and a ravenous hunger. I believe one of the key things that allow innovation to foster is beating down the rentseekers,i.e. enabling adversarial interoperability https://www.eff.org/fr/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interop... and making it easy for individuals to tinker and innovate without needing capital…

There are serious fines attached ( up to 10% of global turnover, 20% for repeat offenders) so it will have plenty of teeth.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#134

While I think big tech needs to be controlled, I think this is the wrong approach. This will slow down development by being forced to implement interop where they shouldn't be forced to IMO, and will confuse less savvy users (e.g. "Why can't I send this $platform_native_content to Bob but can send perfectly to Alice in the same app?"). Controlling entities' presence within the public (the Internet) is one thing, forc…

I fail to see any relevant innovation happen in the current fragmentation of giant silos.

Well, it brought up to here what we have. Even though there are many people complaining, what we currently have, even if fragmented, is a great collection of apps that are free and allow us to send text/images/videos/rich links to anyone using the app on Earth in a split second.

Not saying that it couldn't happen in other setting, but innovation definitely did happen in the current fragmentation of silos.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#135
post #2

> Parliament also succeeded in convincing the Council of interoperability requirements for messaging services, meaning outfits such as WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage will have to open up and interoperate with smaller messaging platforms. For group chats, this requirement will be rolled out over a period of four years. This would be great. I remember using pidgin back in the day and it was really convenient…

> meaning outfits such as WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage will have to open up and interoperate with smaller messaging platforms The way i read it, they're calling for open standards, which can be a good thing. Sadly, open standards also slow down the development of new features, as everybody needs to be "on board" for new features to roll out. Take email (SMTP, IMAP, etc) as an example, where no major progr…

Yeah, but, I can send email to someone no matter what platform they're on. I can visit their website. I think this is "successful".

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#136
post #8

One reason the EU missed out on the internet is our unlimited willingness to be regulated. And we keep piling more and more bureaucracy on top of it. This only cements the power of US big tech like Google and Facebook. And it sets the stage for the next big applications of the web all being build outside the EU as well. Here in Germany, everyone is afraid to start a web startup. And if they do, they spend endless amo…

> This only cements the power of US big tech like Google and Facebook

Au contraire. This regulation will force the big tech companies to open up their platforms, thus enabling innovation and competition.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's so easy to destroy a sector when you have nothing to lose. The EU is choosing to favor acting on behalf of their people, rather than some sector. If that sector can't make money in ways that are not immoral with regards to the people, so be it. For example: Why shouldn't a 30%-fee walled garden be destroyed?

30% fees are not immoral. You may not like them, but that's very far from the same thing. A moral question would be "how much should governments control voluntary interactions between customers, platforms and products?" The immoral answer might well be "As much as it will help them gain short-term votes", not the moral one.

I didn't say 30% fees are immoral, I said 30% fee walled gardens are immoral.

Especially when you make it all but impossible for third parties to operate outside of that walled garden.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#138
post #121
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how are they interoperable when one side uses a feature and the other doesn't support it? that's just degrading the experience... and this is just one small reason why the industry decided against moving forward with this decades ago. it simply didn't make any sense then, certainly doesn't make sense now.

> > that's just degrading the experience... > Uhhh yes? That's the point? The alternative to this degraded experience is no experience at all. so basically it's either degraded experience but w/ interoperability or great experience but w/o interoperability? that doesn't really make sense. why not a third way with great experience and great interoperability? i'm asking because i can guarantee that no one will use clie…

I used to use slack-term and/or Ripcord specifically I wanted the "degraded" experience - i.e., smaller resource footprint and none of the gimmicky nonsense.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#139
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is already a pattern in HN discussions: legislation is proposed, news outlets vaguely summarize it, the HN crowd interprets the summary in absurdly maximalist way without bothering to read the spirit and letter of the law; outrage ensues. This is coupled with an "I-know-better" condescension towards authorities, reinforced by a weird ideology that code is above law The legislation, at least the one coming from B…

The GDPR had consequences that were both wider and wilder than even its most aggressive critics predicted at the time, such as making it illegal for the banking system to continue using their existing EBCDIC-based systems: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28986735 The HN discussion was also full of comments about how the bank should've changed its systems already because it had ample time to come into compliance…

That's a wild edge case. And yes, a bank or whoever should be able to note your real name. It's the banks' problem for using obsolete things, not a GDPR problem.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#140

While I think big tech needs to be controlled, I think this is the wrong approach. This will slow down development by being forced to implement interop where they shouldn't be forced to IMO, and will confuse less savvy users (e.g. "Why can't I send this $platform_native_content to Bob but can send perfectly to Alice in the same app?"). Controlling entities' presence within the public (the Internet) is one thing, forc…

Well then they better get their shit together and implement the features on both ends. They have lots of devs and project management experience. If they don't want to do interop it's just fair that customers are complaining. Nothing a typical chat group on WhatsApp uses is particularly innovative or unique. Text, Voice, Images, Video, map links and attachments probably cover roughly 99% of the use case and everyone s…

They can, but why they should be forced? I mean its their own platform, they shouldn't be used to offer interop. They _could_, if they wanted to, but it's their platform after all, and forcing a private company to open their own pripriatery platform to 3rd parties is plain wrong and against the rights of the company. It's theirs after all.

The right thing here would be making a standard, modern way of communication that supersedes SMS/MMS with a push for global adoption that has all the necessary features of sending videos/images/links/locations etc. with E2EE that is part of GSM technology suite which is either super cheap or free, to offer a sensible alternative to free but closed down services offered by giant companies. That would be much more fair play for a free market.

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