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The end of the nice GTK button

blog.brixit.nl

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Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#441

Post by donatzsky »

dm319 wrote: post #430
Flow wrote: post #270

I really miss a consistent user experience. A core idea that I as a user can rely on to predict how a new app will work. I was in awe when I discovered as a kid that user interface were a research area. Things like Fitt's Law and so on. It was not just opinion. Today I get the feeling it's mostly just opinion. Either the designer's opinion or the wish to copy the look of something. Whenever I see a hamburger menu I s…

Goodness the start bar on Windows. For something that is meant to be a key part of both the mouse and the keyboard workflow, how can it be so slow? My work computers can hang for so long on it, that it is quicker to find the application shortcut on the desktop.

I believe it's not really an integrated part of the Explorer shell anymore, but rather a separate process that gets launched every time you open the start menu.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#442

Post by adhesive_wombat »

berkes wrote: post #410
adhesive_wombat wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spend far too long in GTK apps looking for the right menu to do basic stuff. It's like someone once saw an iPad from across a room and tried to implement what they remembered of it.

This is really not the best place to throw condescending anecdotes around to insult FLOSS. What, on an iPad, should a designer look at in detail to improve the GTK app, for example?

Where did I say GTK should follow iOS? All I said was that it looks like they did, and did it badly.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#443

Post by dspillett »

dm319 wrote: post #430
Flow wrote: post #270

I really miss a consistent user experience. A core idea that I as a user can rely on to predict how a new app will work. I was in awe when I discovered as a kid that user interface were a research area. Things like Fitt's Law and so on. It was not just opinion. Today I get the feeling it's mostly just opinion. Either the designer's opinion or the wish to copy the look of something. Whenever I see a hamburger menu I s…

Goodness the start bar on Windows. For something that is meant to be a key part of both the mouse and the keyboard workflow, how can it be so slow? My work computers can hang for so long on it, that it is quicker to find the application shortcut on the desktop.

> how can it be so slow?

Because it is trying to be all things to all people: including supporting sponsored content and integrating with any fancy new/copied idea that the company is pushing (which may be quietly deprecated in the next major revision, but the hooks left adding abstraction load to everything else so that the few who actually found it useful don't complain).

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#444

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #407
wolpoli wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In modern Windows, press Win-key and start to type, oops, it missed the first keypresses, presented the completely wrong results and made a mess of your workflow. Every time I bump into these interaction issues, my stomach churns a little bit. Right now, Windows 11 is especially bad because they have new and old code working side by side. It'll take a few years for Microsoft to rewrite enough of the Shell so everyt…

By then Microsoft will have moved on to the next bit of Apple envy and it will all be out of sync again.

Windows 11 looks like KDE envy tbh

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#445

Post by tonyedgecombe »

lelanthran wrote: post #337
ghosty141 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too hate the material design kind of flatness. For me, only apple somehow gets UI right (at least for me) and it feels very intuitive for me while also looking very good. The new "flat" design that pops up everywhere sometimes just feels like a lazy version of UI design, where you basically don't need proper styles anymore and just make everything b/w with maybe a border here and there.

> I too hate the material design kind of flatness. For me, only apple somehow gets UI right (at least for me) and it feels very intuitive for me while also looking very good. I dunno about that (both Apple using flat, and the "gets it right" part). I'm looking at activity monitor now, under memory pressure, and the table of memory types has "Memory used" row expanded, and yet none of the rows are actually clickable.…

>I'm looking at activity monitor now, under memory pressure, and the table of memory types has "Memory used" row expanded, and yet none of the rows are actually clickable. I spent a few seconds yesterday trying to click the other rows.

I can see why you might get confused there but it feels like nitpicking. I never expected to click on any of those elements because they don't look like a traditional table or outline view.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#446

Post by hulitu »

microtonal wrote: post #398
hulitu wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expert level means using keyboard shortcuts. This is true when you use only an editor and a debugger. When you need to use 10 programs each with its own keyboard shorcuts (which, BTW you need to search in internet which they are because the company doing the software did not bother to make them accessible in a help menu) you're gonna have a hard time. In the (1985) past you had for such things a holder attached to…

which, BTW you need to search in internet which they are because the company doing the software did not bother to make them accessible in a help menu At least on macOS and Windows the shortcuts are shown in the (traditional) menu bar. With GNOME's use of hamburgers, it's anyone's guess. As someone who likes shortcuts, I found it very hard to figure out shortcuts in GNOME apps that have a lot of functionality hidden a…

In Excel 365 pressing ALT shows the shortcut key in the ribbon ( if enabled in options). The issue is that the ribbon looks now like google maps. In Edge pressing ALT sets the focus to the "...". What to do next is left as an exercise for the reader. In Teams, pressing ALT does nothing and the Help button has only "Themes", "News" and "Training" .

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#447

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #132
Sunspark wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flatness of some UIs along with the removal of some visual cues has happened that I have tapped on things that aren't actually a button thinking that they might be one. When I make my own apps one day, I am going to ignore design fads and only make intuitive interfaces.

Just go full-audacity and drown people in drop down menus lol at least I know what to click!

Audacity is a piece that made me learn its hotkeys. Once you do that, it’s pretty nice actually.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#448

Post by sph »

cout wrote: post #230
Sunspark wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flatness of some UIs along with the removal of some visual cues has happened that I have tapped on things that aren't actually a button thinking that they might be one. When I make my own apps one day, I am going to ignore design fads and only make intuitive interfaces.

If you really want to go against the grain, may I suggest radial menus, which allow the user to muscle-memory through menu selections: https://bindpose.com/custom-marking-menu-maya-python/

Fly-Pie, a radial menu for GNOME: https://github.com/Schneegans/Fly-Pie

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#449

Post by dspillett »

hnlmorg wrote: post #431
fxtentacle wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still remember the good old days where keyboards had Function keys and apps would prominently display a F2 next to the save button, an F10 next to quit. Even for computer illiterate people, that made using keyboard shortcuts a bliss. Save was ALWAYS on F2 no matter what you did, so people would put physical stickers on their keyboard to make the F2 button say "Save" on the keycap.

What system was this? I've used every version of Windows (literally), DOS since the 80s, Macs since the 90s, Linux since the 90s, Atari ST, and several different 8-bit micros and I don't recall ever using F2 to save. I do believe your anecdote but it's completely escaped me what platform might have used F2. Also worth noting that keyboards do still have function keys. In fact I use F2 as my `tmux` control prefix. :)

I remember F2 being save in the DOS era, or maybe I'm misremembering and it was F3...

But for many years I've associated F2 with edit or rename.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#450

Post by pmontra »

zozbot234 wrote: post #39
pmontra wrote: post #29

Wait ten years. New people will start working, old people will move on to other things. The new people will change stuff, mostly for the sake of it as it always happens, and one of the results will be less flat interfaces. Old people will be infuriated by the change. Very old people will rejoice but also complain that those UIs are not as good as the really old ones. New people will shrug them away and keep changing…

It's already happening, new interfaces from both Apple (see Big Sur/Monterey) and Google (Material design) are noticeably less "flat" and going back to 3d effects for "active" widgets. The effects are much as seen in GTK+ 3 - just subtle enough to not look overly confusing when compared to a totally "flat" screenshot, but still helpful to unfamiliar users.

So maybe GTK 5 will take notice 10 years from now, when GTK 4 will start looking outdated in 2024.
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