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The end of the nice GTK button

blog.brixit.nl

401–410 of 666 posts

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#401
post #270

I really miss a consistent user experience. A core idea that I as a user can rely on to predict how a new app will work. I was in awe when I discovered as a kid that user interface were a research area. Things like Fitt's Law and so on. It was not just opinion. Today I get the feeling it's mostly just opinion. Either the designer's opinion or the wish to copy the look of something. Whenever I see a hamburger menu I s…

> Things like Fitt's Law and so on. It was not just opinion. Here's another one: "users were roughly 37% faster at finding items when visual indicators varied both in color and icon compared to text alone" Source: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/visual-indicators-different... The whole point of the settings app shown in the OP's screenshots is to quickly find the relevant section in the sidebar. But even before the…

> "users were roughly 37% faster at finding items when visual indicators varied both in color and icon compared to text alone"

Reminds me of https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/927/386/c4d...

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have had to explain to people tons of times that the random word in the UI somewhere in an application is actually a button they can press to invoke an action. Exactly this. I often help others use computers and phones. In the old days it was easy to see what could be clicked. Now input and output look the same. It makes it harder to use. In many ways it is a victory of style over substance - UI's are now designe…

> In many ways it is a victory of style over substance - UI's are now designed by the same crowd who designs high fashion, that is clothes not designed to be worn but to be gawked at. Oh? Where do the Gnome designers list their runway appearances on their site? https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/ I'm an art-school educated designer, decade+ full-time web developer for over a decade and regular FOSS contributor for about a…

> UI design as a discipline fundamentally assumes the person designing the interface doesn't intuitively understand what's better or what's worse— they should investigate, check, and confirm their strategies.

As a developer who always had an interest in UI design but has zero formal education in the field, I be really interested to know more about this. Could you maybe explain some of those strategies?

My subjective impression is that design has shifted from building a consistent "language" to a more goal-driven and data-driven approach today. The product owner defines a list of user stories and UI is primarily concerned with making those user stories as frictionless as possible - even if this means a less consistent overall design snd even if it means that less common features become harder to use. Performance is measured in a feedback loop through telemetry and A/B tests.

I might be wrong though, so I'd be interested in a qualified opinion.

(Also disclaimer: I grew up with Windows 98, ME/2000 and XP. So I guess this is my "good old times" spot then, where I'm wearing the rose-coloured glasses.)

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#403

I'm going to take a risk here and say that I'm a designer who generally likes flat design. I see a lot of hate here against flat design, and it makes sense. A lot of designers abuse it, making their UIs ambiguous. It's probably true that if flat design was never conceived, UIs would be less confusing on average. But it's clearly possible to do flat design well. iOS is mostly flat, but it's quite beautiful and user fr…

> If it's not obvious, it's probably not a critical feature, just a nicety for those who discover it. That's a really bad way to go about usability. It's pretty frustrating you're looking for a feature to have to hunt for it like you're playing a point & click game. At that point I wouldn't even call it a feature, it's an Easter egg.

Exactly my thoughts. Who's to say if a feature is critical or not? It's the user.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#404
post #50

I agree 100% with the author, the old GTK button was gorgeous, it will be missed. > I have had to explain to people tons of times that the random word in the UI somewhere in an application is actually a button they can press to invoke an action. This is one of my biggest complaints with the super flat modern designs. Many widgets lost their skeuomorphic depth, which encoded a lot if visual information (the clickabili…

A couple of times i found myself clicking on various text labels just to see if it is a title or a button. All these flat minimalist designs are a step in a horribly wrong direction.

And sometimes a text label hides a menu.

The best i've seen was a web page with a hamburger menu which had no action.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#405

I'm going to take a risk here and say that I'm a designer who generally likes flat design. I see a lot of hate here against flat design, and it makes sense. A lot of designers abuse it, making their UIs ambiguous. It's probably true that if flat design was never conceived, UIs would be less confusing on average. But it's clearly possible to do flat design well. iOS is mostly flat, but it's quite beautiful and user fr…

I think this is a fantastic comment. I've always seen design as just trends, but you're completely right that is serves a specific purpose, and as that purpose changes so does the design. There may still be trends, but we can at least reason about them.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In many ways it is a victory of style over substance - UI's are now designed by the same crowd who designs high fashion, that is clothes not designed to be worn but to be gawked at. Oh? Where do the Gnome designers list their runway appearances on their site? https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/ I'm an art-school educated designer, decade+ full-time web developer for over a decade and regular FOSS contributor for about a…

The complaint about flat design isn't levelled only at FOSS, but at the whole industry. Your points may explain the situation in FOSS, but it doesn't explain the poor work being put out by the thousands of designers and UI/UX people working as professionals in industry. The failings of flat design are everywhere .

I'd go as far as to say that these failings started in proprietary software, hyped, marketed and then copied by FLOSS.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#407
post #270

I really miss a consistent user experience. A core idea that I as a user can rely on to predict how a new app will work. I was in awe when I discovered as a kid that user interface were a research area. Things like Fitt's Law and so on. It was not just opinion. Today I get the feeling it's mostly just opinion. Either the designer's opinion or the wish to copy the look of something. Whenever I see a hamburger menu I s…

> In modern Windows, press Win-key and start to type, oops, it missed the first keypresses, presented the completely wrong results and made a mess of your workflow. Every time I bump into these interaction issues, my stomach churns a little bit. Right now, Windows 11 is especially bad because they have new and old code working side by side. It'll take a few years for Microsoft to rewrite enough of the Shell so everyt…

By then Microsoft will have moved on to the next bit of Apple envy and it will all be out of sync again.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have had to explain to people tons of times that the random word in the UI somewhere in an application is actually a button they can press to invoke an action. Exactly this. I often help others use computers and phones. In the old days it was easy to see what could be clicked. Now input and output look the same. It makes it harder to use. In many ways it is a victory of style over substance - UI's are now designe…

We probably need to start paying UI folks NOT to change stuff. They can do all their flat-experimenting in custom themes.

In the case of the article, that is somewhat unfair.

> GTK4 has been in development for a bit and has improved a lot of the internals. One of the great upsides is that it can take more advantage of the GPU when rendering the UI.

So there was a clear need to rewrite parts to fix internals.

> The Adwaita theme has also been nicely carried over and looks very similar to the GTK3 counterpart. ... > When I want to make a gtk4 application for mobile I would need libhandy, but libhandy for gtk4 is not a thing. The "solution" is libadwaita. This provides the widgets I need but it comes with the downside of having some of the worst decisions in application theming.

So, there we have it: it's not "UI folks just changing stuff", its a ground-up rebuild of a UI-language.

Now, whether or not that ground-up should be flat, modern, or just copy the old, is another discussion.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#409
I've been using computers since ZX Spectrum days. I've seen all kinds of design-activity and design-philosophies. What's missing from today's design-thinking for me, is context-appropriate direction.

Some things should be flat, or more precisely - subdued. An Instagram photo page shouldn't be all buttons and underlined links, sure - the photo is the important part so that the rest should be subdued. But the settings page should be all skeumorphic buttons and links and dials and switches, that's what it's for.

It looks to me like there is an unhealthy tribalism invading design-thinking. As long as I have the correct ideology, no matter the context - my design is "good". Get on the flat-design bandwagon. Forget decades of UI research. Think in screenshots, doesn't matter if it's all jank and moves things in and out from under the user's fingers. Put everything on one screen, don't contextualize.

"I'm being paid to deliver", not to think through. To ship, not to test.

My designs require a gaming PC to run a document-like page, and don't scale down. "I'm designing for the future", it will all work out. Eventually. For some.

My tools and my education are a sliver of what a designer used to think about, so I can't really do anything about it anyway, that's just the way it comes out. You don't honestly expect me to learn about the systems and devices my users are running this on, do you? That would make me a coder, that is to say not a designer.

How did that happen?

How did being knowledgeable and well-rounded at your industry become rare? Business reasons? How did using a computer become constantly surprizing and never straightforward? Business reasons? Why do I have this and that humongous app just for one or two things it does, and now there's 200+ apps in there? Always waiting for something to load all that, just so I can do this one thing. Business reasons?

It's not business reasons. OSS is no better.

Maybe it's that the approach that got us to where we are, the moving fast and breaking things, keeping your nose down in your own corner isn't what will get us out of here?

I mean, my computer usage went down over the last 12 years, like 5x. I just don't want to. I'm more or less done with all of it.

It all feels like it got bolted on, and then bolted on, and then ducktaped around.

Terminals, mobile UI, desktop apps, the Web, games, appliances, work tools, control systems; ALL OF IT.

Sure, there's loads of it, and it's cheap. But there is still no choice, not really. This jank or that, it doesn't do it for me. I've checked out, more or less.

I stopped looking at new laptops, and when my phone breaks I pull a couple of old ones from the drawer and make me a working something. I'm not giving them my money, why would I? They got nothing I want. Apple, Google, Lenovo and the rest of them equally.

The last MS product I enjoyed using was MASM. That's until I found out about NASM.

There is no dumb car I can buy. Everything is finicky touch and not user-serviceable. Many things are so flimsy you can't lean on them at all.

But then, one has to understand that if the whole world around you seems to have lost the plot, chances are it's you. So, is it me, what do you think?

Because I can't handle it, I'm legit checking out.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#410

I agree 100% with the author, the old GTK button was gorgeous, it will be missed. > I have had to explain to people tons of times that the random word in the UI somewhere in an application is actually a button they can press to invoke an action. This is one of my biggest complaints with the super flat modern designs. Many widgets lost their skeuomorphic depth, which encoded a lot if visual information (the clickabili…

I spend far too long in GTK apps looking for the right menu to do basic stuff. It's like someone once saw an iPad from across a room and tried to implement what they remembered of it.

This is really not the best place to throw condescending anecdotes around to insult FLOSS.

What, on an iPad, should a designer look at in detail to improve the GTK app, for example?

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