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The end of the nice GTK button

blog.brixit.nl

211–220 of 666 posts

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#211

So basically the new GTK is iOS but without the professional designers behind it. What I cannot understand is how Canonical, Red Hat, or some rich SV person hasn’t thrown money at the problem and hired a big wig design firm or person to overhaul it all. Johnny Ive is now even available (if he’d take the project). But even going thru a site like dribbble there are so many amazing designers out there. To me it would be…

If you're Apple and you make your desktop more attractive and pleasant you drive sales and market share. If you're redhat and you resource that you drive market share, to Ubuntu, who I believe still have a policy of never paying for development except for Ubuntu things, eg their failed desktop nobody else would use, Mir, bzr, etc.

Is that still the case? It would be a huge disincentive for other distros to contribute to the commons when ubuntu just parasite from it to a big market share.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#212
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same could be same about good software design (as in programming), but we've found to design well written software before in a open source manner, I'm sure we could (if we focus on it) figure out something for UI/UX design as well that works in a open source context. For example, style guides written and enforced by a small team can allow open contributions for the UI design. I think it's mostly that not many have tr…

And look at how these projects are organized. Most of the time it's pretty much top-down with a. It's why we have the term BDFL. > good software design (as in programming) That's the second problem. Most programmers probably know about about how good software design works, but have poor taste and prefer designs that aren't suitable for software that is to be used by non-programmers that want sane defaults that work a…

> And look at how these projects are organized. Most of the time it's pretty much top-down with a. It's why we have the term BDFL.

To make a more general point: top down leadership is not inherently bad. But in order for this to work well, people need to have the ability to enter and exit a project or polity at will.

(See eg how McDonald's doesn't let customers vote what to put on their menu, but customers are free to eat at a competitor or make their own food at home.

And compare that with North Korea also not letting citizens vote on their menu. But also taking steps to keep people from switching to a competing provider of government services, like South Korea. Similar also for the Berlin Wall.)

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#213
I don’t like conspiracy theories, but I always wondered if the flat design trend wasn’t a genius way to nullify the advantage of higher powered graphic platforms.

“Our stuff looks lickable, buy our expensive hardware.”

“Au contraire, design with colored paper and scissors is hipper than lickable UIs. Buy our less than stellar hardware.”

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#214
post #82

Non techies have been using flat design interfaces for like a decade now and the world hasn't ended. If you personally like another style, totally fine. But it's odd that programmers always think they know more about usability than people who study it for a living.

I tend to see it from the opposite perspective. Physical looking buttons, borders, and always-visible controls were designs born from rigorous user testing in the 1980s and early 1990s. The push to flat design that really picked up steam around a decade ago did not have, as far as I can tell, the same level of testing, and was promoted largely by programmers who wanted designs that were easier to implement.

Platform developers were incentivized to go flat because it lowered the cost of development and development time if developers were using fewer, simpler custom assets. At this time, both Apple and Google were bragging about how many apps were on their stores, and how fast they were growing, and neither wanted to fall behind the other.

But admittedly, my perspective was that of a third-party developer. I have no direct knowledge of why Microsoft, Google, and Apple all embraced this trend, and I have only anecdotal evidence that it made things more difficult for novice users. There could be a treasure trove of research showing that flat is better, but I have never seen it presented.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#215
post #195
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s going to be a bloody mess for a long time, because the choices for how to handle resolution independence are all inherently filled with compromise. With font rendering, I think there is hope. Horizontal subpixel positioning with vertical hinting seems like a good tradeoff to me. Grid fitting vertically is not too jarring, and grid fitting horizontally to subpixels instead of pixels looks pretty good too, on low…

I really don't understand what was wrong with the X11 approach. I had a high DPI monitor in 2001. I typed the DPI into /etc/XFree86.conf or whatever, and it all Just Worked (TM). Edit: I think modern web browsers implement ctrl-+ and ctrl-- the same way, except X11 apps kept separate directories of icons rendered for different DPIs, because 1GHz single core still seemed luxurious. Web browsers scale the bitmaps using…

Well, how much it Just Worked really depended on what you were doing and how. At a point, it all stopped Just Work-ing.

Old old X11 apps used X11 drawing commands. These sucked, and nobody liked them. If you think you liked them, please show me your clean Xlib codebases for proof :P As far as I can recall, these still dealt with pixels, so clients were on the hook for dealing with scaling, though in theory it wasn’t too bad. They don’t really solve any of the pixel perfection issues that I am discussing, though.

More modern apps (— early 2000s should be “modern” enough by X11 standards, but my memory is foggy and I’m too young to really be an expert here —) instead blit pixmaps sent over shmem, defeating both network transparency and the inherent “vector” nature of many of the old drawing commands. X11 didn’t really handle anything other than knowing the DPI (… that you told it …)

At that point, up to GTK+2 and Qt 3, which is to say, even quite a while After 2001, you had at best limited scalability. If you had your CRT cranked up to around 150 PPI, everything was OK — you could get text scaling and the disparity wasn’t so bad. However, GTK+2 and Qt 3, and their ancestors, were not built with DPI independence. At best, they could adjust vector text sizes according to DPI and scaling preferences. Again, this looks OK for nvidia-xsettings and a modest PPI increase, but it’s absolutely terrible for anything more. Margins don’t adjust, padding doesn’t adjust, icon sizes don’t adjust, nothing. There’s no blur or jankiness because there’s no true scaling.

(Just as a quick note, this is literally the reality of GIMP today, right now. It’s still on GTK+2, and so the best you can get is text scaling, or flat out nothing.)

And that’s to say nothing about what happens if the DPI changes, which requires you to effectively restart everything. And that also doesn’t help people who have two different displays with different PPIs. The ever common case of the high DPI laptop with a cheap LCD plugged in. Have fun with that crap.

Modern Linux can do better. The Wayland protocol comes with DPI negotiation that allows naive clients to get blurry upscaling, “simple” clients to pick a set of scales they can support and have the server adjust for whatever one they decide to render to, and advanced clients can render at any DPI, in response to the server advertising what DPI the current display is. With atomicity of configuration changes that allows a properly written client and server to never render an “intermediate” incorrect frame, and scaling that ensures that surfaces across multiple displays display at the correct DPI on all of them (albeit with either upscaling or downscaling on some of them.)

And that still does absolutely nothing to solve the fact that pixel perfect layouts are inherently not perfectly “scalable.” Because truly scaling some vector drawing commands that just happen to be pixel perfect at one resolution will not always result in pixel perfect rendering in another. You would need code that compensates for the scaling. Old X11 apps did not do this.

Of course I could be completely wrong and old X11 could’ve had some amazing DPI scaling technology that I somehow missed for decades. I don’t think so. My memory is that when I finally hooked up a high DPI display to Linux, I experienced tiny Skype, Pidgin (GAIM) with tiny icons and large text, and nvidia-xsettings with weird hinting/kerning. I’d like to move on from that kind of scaling.

P.S.: PostScript doesn’t do anything magic either. Everyone’s graphics systems were PostScript inspired, and yet macOS wound up with the same DPI scaling conundrums as anyone else. Most people wouldn’t tolerate desktop apps as blurry as a PDF at 96 DPI.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#216

I agree 100% with the author, the old GTK button was gorgeous, it will be missed. > I have had to explain to people tons of times that the random word in the UI somewhere in an application is actually a button they can press to invoke an action. This is one of my biggest complaints with the super flat modern designs. Many widgets lost their skeuomorphic depth, which encoded a lot if visual information (the clickabili…

Had that experience before where I spent ages looking for how to do something and what I had tough was a label was actually a button.

Now if I can't find anything then I just start clicking on random design elements in case they turn out to be a secret button to a hidden page.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#217
The problem is that UI has reached its pinnacle with Win2k/xp classic. So if you are a designer, you still have to do your job, you gotta design something. But it is never going to be on that level, in efficiency, looks or usability. It's such a nihilistic proposition, I can hardly be mad at designers of today. Go ahead, make that button flat and call it clever. Why not

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#219
post #7

The flat UI trend baffles me. The removal of text from icons and buttons baffles me. For example, in Windows 11 I spent close to a minute looking for "Rename" in the right-click menu in Windows Explorer. Turns out it's not there! It's been removed out of the flow of the list and put in the top of the right-click menu, behind a small, picture-only icon that I've never seen before. MacOS is guilty of this too: Buttons…

This is why I have reverted to the CLI whenever possible. There's something deeply assuring knowing that I don't have to relearn my whole workflow every few months when the trends change. ls, grep, find, ps, htop will always be what they are. Even the Windows CLI is thankfully consistent. All I want is to get work done the way I want, and I've found the CLI is increasingly the path of least resistance.

> ls, grep, find, ps, htop will always be what they are.

SystemD screwed with a few that I'm still discovering one by one. "cron", "shutdown" is no longer in the default debian path, I think ulimit was another one.

But at least I don't wake up one morning with the whole interface rearranged.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest complaint from steam deck users seems to be the virtual keyboard isn't reliable, which is a pretty big issue.

I have a pine-phone and the virtual keyboard just refuses to pop up for some apps (like firefox!!). I keep looking in the settings for "force virtual keyboard on" or something but can't find it.

Firefox does use GTK unfortunately.
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