Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout • Hacker News Board

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#431

Post by _carbyau_ » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 1:55 AM UTC

mrjangles wrote: post #309

colechristensen wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoning. You link the "zones which employ people" and "zones which house people" to balance so you don't have significantly more jobs than homes. Next you zone for type of housing, where you only allow a certain percentage of the most profitable 1BR apartments to be built, and require those to be above certain size thresholds so that a variety of life situations can actually live in your city. You don't need to "incen…

The reason no one is building expensive apartments in these areas with socialist like governments is because of things like rent control and laws that disadvantage landlords, and which make the prospect of leasing to poor people completely undesirable. This is why a huge number of the apartments in California are sitting empty, because it is still better to have an empty apartment than having a poor person living the…

We have a thing in Melbourne where empty places can be fined. They can track by utilities use. There's a process for appeal etc etc but it amounts to: "you have a liveable place, let someone live there"

I have no problem with this. If investors argue it is a shit deal, that is fine, get out of the market and let someone who wants to live there buy it.

I firmly believe that housing cannot be both an investment market AND affordable for everyone.

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#432

Post by tshaddox » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 1:57 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #258

glenstein wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and this is the trouble with trying to get people to engage with hypotheticals on the internet in thoughtful ways. The usual formula for any engagement with hypothetical ideas is for it to be reflexively dismissed with a "that'll never work" response. Most of the time I think this is the instinctive friction we feel at being asked to engage with a new idea, and saying that'll never work for [insert reason] is i…

It's not really that complicated. If everyone has more money, then everyone can afford to pay more, so prices will rise to consume that extra money. And you are back where you started. Or you have to raise prices again, in a never ending loop. I suppose you can hand out ration cards for food and housing, so those never have a price, just a government supply. That's the only "out" I can think of to keep the loop from…

You seem to be assuming that all this new money comes out of thin air, which might be a plausible way to think about central banks issuing new money, but it doesn’t seem to be a natural way to think about changing the minimum wage. Changing the minimum wage makes specific things cost more, which isn’t the same as creating new money or “giving everyone more money.”

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#433

Post by zeruch » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 2:00 AM UTC

mrjangles wrote: post #309

colechristensen wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoning. You link the "zones which employ people" and "zones which house people" to balance so you don't have significantly more jobs than homes. Next you zone for type of housing, where you only allow a certain percentage of the most profitable 1BR apartments to be built, and require those to be above certain size thresholds so that a variety of life situations can actually live in your city. You don't need to "incen…

The reason no one is building expensive apartments in these areas with socialist like governments is because of things like rent control and laws that disadvantage landlords, and which make the prospect of leasing to poor people completely undesirable. This is why a huge number of the apartments in California are sitting empty, because it is still better to have an empty apartment than having a poor person living the…

"The reason no one is building expensive apartments in these areas with socialist like governments"

That sentence is absurd, and shows either someone with an ax to grind, or who has never traveled anywhere unfamiliar to what he prefers.

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#434

Post by jprd » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 2:04 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #196

rpmisms wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Henry Ford, capitalist extraordinaire, famously paid his workers $5 a day, double the average automaker's wage at the time. This extracted maximum value from said labor.

I know the popular story is that: 1. pay workers extra (ie. above the market rate) 2. workers are richer now 3. they use that money to buy the stuff you make 4. ??? 5. profit! Has this actually been studied empirically? If you had to choose between paying your workers $1000 more and pocketing it, surely the latter option is the better one? Sure, they might use some of that money to buy your product, but they're not g…

Because they are humans that are not legal slaves. Happy employees don't quit, produce more and contribute to their community. In what way is denying all of that furthering anyone's agenda except the craven individual driving it?

Capitalism as a zero-sum game is myopic at best. Based on your comment I wouldn't be totally surprised to hear some esoteric argument to support the economic wisdom behind chattel slavery.

Civilization was created by people working together to survive, and then thrive. Throughout history it has been captured by strongmen annd enabled by fear. The US forgot the face of its father and started to concentrate on "Shareholder Value" insanity after Marshall Plan.

Pirate Equity firms swoop in and start dismantling all that was built for quick profits, not only destroying communities, but eliminating proficiency in all types of industry.

Do you think that pattern is valid, moral and what you'd want to achieve as an entrepreneur? I am curious and not trying to attack, is this the kind of idea you'd want promulgated into the future? How can that lead somewhere positive?

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#435

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 2:08 AM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #432

ars wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really that complicated. If everyone has more money, then everyone can afford to pay more, so prices will rise to consume that extra money. And you are back where you started. Or you have to raise prices again, in a never ending loop. I suppose you can hand out ration cards for food and housing, so those never have a price, just a government supply. That's the only "out" I can think of to keep the loop from…

You seem to be assuming that all this new money comes out of thin air, which might be a plausible way to think about central banks issuing new money, but it doesn’t seem to be a natural way to think about changing the minimum wage. Changing the minimum wage makes specific things cost more, which isn’t the same as creating new money or “giving everyone more money.”

[deleted]

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#436

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 2:09 AM UTC

mrjangles wrote: post #309

colechristensen wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoning. You link the "zones which employ people" and "zones which house people" to balance so you don't have significantly more jobs than homes. Next you zone for type of housing, where you only allow a certain percentage of the most profitable 1BR apartments to be built, and require those to be above certain size thresholds so that a variety of life situations can actually live in your city. You don't need to "incen…

The reason no one is building expensive apartments in these areas with socialist like governments is because of things like rent control and laws that disadvantage landlords, and which make the prospect of leasing to poor people completely undesirable. This is why a huge number of the apartments in California are sitting empty, because it is still better to have an empty apartment than having a poor person living the…

> This is why a huge number of the apartments in California are sitting empty,

California has one of the lowest rates of unoccupied housing in the country: https://www.lendingtree.com/home/mortgage/vacancy-rates-stud...

Not only is your explanation of the effect a fantasy born of ideology rather than fact, but even the effect you purport to explain is such a fantasy.

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#437

Post by ars » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 2:10 AM UTC

bo1024 wrote: post #386

ars wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's saying that if everyone has extra money, then everyone can afford higher prices. Since they can afford higher prices, people will charge those higher prices. And you are back where you started.

That’s not how market prices are generally set. Competition and demand keep them low. It might happen the way you describe sometimes but it’s far from a guarantee.

You'd think so, but history shows different. If everyone has the same extra money, prices go up to match. It's a type of inflation I guess.

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#438

Post by webstrand » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 2:16 AM UTC

bo1024 wrote: post #389

lostphilosopher wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone have a good explanation (or resource) for why this wouldn’t happen?

The theory is just supply and demand, which is how prices are determined in a competitive market. If you give everyone $20k, would you expect grocery stores to raise the price of bananas to $20/lb? Probably not, since people can just go to the grocery store down the street. Now if everyone suddenly wanted to buy more bananas with their new cash that would have an effect, but that’s how markets are supposed to work. I…

Why wouldn't rent just increase to capture this new income for most people? If UBI is high enough to afford mortgage payments on an owned house, housing prices will skyrocket (even more than now) until those receiving the UBI are priced out of the market once again. Because once the mortgage is paid off, the value of the property is expected to grow, and that's a bet lots of people are taking, even now in this crazy market.

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#439

Post by rpmisms » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 2:22 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #196

rpmisms wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Henry Ford, capitalist extraordinaire, famously paid his workers $5 a day, double the average automaker's wage at the time. This extracted maximum value from said labor.

I know the popular story is that: 1. pay workers extra (ie. above the market rate) 2. workers are richer now 3. they use that money to buy the stuff you make 4. ??? 5. profit! Has this actually been studied empirically? If you had to choose between paying your workers $1000 more and pocketing it, surely the latter option is the better one? Sure, they might use some of that money to buy your product, but they're not g…

If your workers don't leave, enjoy their jobs, and do them well, how can you argue that's less valuable than Amazon worrying about running out of people to hire because they blow through workers like Patrick Bateman through homeless guys and coworkers?

My wife just left a manufacturing company because of the latter attitude, and they're fucked, because she was the only person left who could operate a 50s era prototype machine (that happens to make the only dry test slides in the world).

I'm fully aware this is anecdotal, but if that company had treated workers well, they wouldn't have to be asking people to come out of retirement to operate a machine. That's a loss of value for them.

Re: Applebee’s exec urges using high gas prices to push lower wages, sparks walkout

#440

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 2:23 AM UTC

webstrand wrote: post #438

bo1024 wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory is just supply and demand, which is how prices are determined in a competitive market. If you give everyone $20k, would you expect grocery stores to raise the price of bananas to $20/lb? Probably not, since people can just go to the grocery store down the street. Now if everyone suddenly wanted to buy more bananas with their new cash that would have an effect, but that’s how markets are supposed to work. I…

Why wouldn't rent just increase to capture this new income for most people? If UBI is high enough to afford mortgage payments on an owned house, housing prices will skyrocket (even more than now) until those receiving the UBI are priced out of the market once again. Because once the mortgage is paid off, the value of the property is expected to grow, and that's a bet lots of people are taking, even now in this crazy…

We could do what they do in Japan and deprecate housing as it ages. Very few people buy second hand properties, so a house is a liability that needs to be demolished vs land without one. It also helps if no one believes in property speculation because of a huge property bubble that burst in the 80s.