Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source • Hacker News Board

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#81

Post by slackfan » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

trentnix wrote: post #73

slackfan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use software to build stuff, not to subscribe to a set of political ideologies.

A small, extremely loud, and extremely sanctimonious part of the population will not accept that. They will consider your lack of political motivation for your work distasteful and eventually immoral. You'll be asked to support movements, participate in ritual, and publicly proclaim your allegiance. Eventually, they'll demand it. “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the…

Oh there's no eventually. They've been demanding it for years. There's a very good reason why some software on my machines is already pinned to specific versions, and will not under any circumstances be upgraded.

Thankfully the field of software development has stagnated to the point that there really hasn't been any significant improvements to actual non-web software in about 15 years, so I'm looking forward to the brand new world with a stack of ancient machines, a bunch of boxes of capacitors, and a few hard drives' worth of abandonware, because frankly, fuck that noise THE AMISH WERE RIGHT.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#82

Post by vladvasiliu » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

meken wrote: post #37

It’s crazy how much trust plays a factor in the success of open source. And if that trust is eroded, the whole system comes crumbling down.

I'd say this is the case in the broader society, too.

Companies paying after the service is rendered, delivery services not having to be escorted by armed guards, being sure that a random worker won't poison the food on the production chain, etc

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#83

Post by ISL » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

There is an argument to be made in the opposite direction. One of the key benefits to open source software is the opportunity to inspect the code that you're running... before you run it.

At issue here isn't open source as a concept, but rather an emergent ecosystem in that blindly trusts package uploaders not to be malevolent. It points to a need for improved testing coverage. Indeed, since open source is open, it is also amenable to static analysis of uploaded package revisions, something one cannot readily do with closed-source software.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#84

Post by dspillett » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

Palomides wrote: post #11

cpitman wrote: post #6

100%. I've already seen articles in non-tech media that explain what happened to a non-technical audience, and the explanation sounded a lot like open source is the problem and that proprietary software would never have these problems. It wasn't that long ago that using open source software required a lot of politicking inside my clients, and we could easily go back there with enough spooked executives.

a disagreeable take: why should open source projects make any effort to be accessible to corporations that will never donate or support them?

While the prior post was talking about reticence to trust OSS code in commercial environments, the problem is not limited to that arena. This change hit national news here, albeit very temporarily, not just tech and business news.

If an OSS developer can drop a logic bomb on Russian interests, one could do it to anyone else they disagree with, and that might understandably make people uncomfortable.

Furthermore, the “attack” was indiscriminate, hitting out at a geographical area potentially damaging the data of many innocent bystanders not just those responsible for, taking part in, or supporting, the invasion. Or is it OK for a code bomb to affect civilian targets? I know physical protests often inconvenience bystanders, intentionally so, a lot of the point is to do so in order to draw attention to the matter being protested, but wilful destruction of property is usually considered bad form for such protests (arguably at that point you have a riot, not a protest) and that is essentially what node.ipc change did.

Putting commercial interests off OSS is a symptom of a deeper wrong here.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#85

Post by TeeMassive » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

I never understood why any maintainer worth his salt would admit logic bombs into his own turf. This is literally putting a wolf in the sheepfold in the hope he only eats the black sheep.

OSS is built on hard earned collective trust. Once this is gone, the golden age we are surfing on right now will be gone.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#86

Post by GranularRecipe » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #47

> Instead of malware, a better approach to free expression would be to use messages in commit logs to send anti-propaganda messages and to issue trackers to share accurate news inside Russia of what is really happening in Ukraine at the hands of the Russian military, to cite two obvious possibilities How about not taking sides instead of acting like a kid believing one side is black and the other white with absolutel…

Open source is driven by many opioniated and idealistic people who also worry about the current geopolitical development. They might make their opinions known in a non-destructive manner.

You might not like it, fair enough, but expressing one's opinion in commit messages is neither childish nor an instrumentalisation by any government.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#87

Post by WesolyKubeczek » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #47

> Instead of malware, a better approach to free expression would be to use messages in commit logs to send anti-propaganda messages and to issue trackers to share accurate news inside Russia of what is really happening in Ukraine at the hands of the Russian military, to cite two obvious possibilities How about not taking sides instead of acting like a kid believing one side is black and the other white with absolutel…

Was this also your stance during BLM protests? Asking for a friend.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#88

Post by grnmamba » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #5

I'm in Texas. A LOT of Californians disagree with some of the laws that Texas has passed. How long will it be until my hard drive gets reformatted by some protestor in San Francisco who localizes my IP address?

Another fun scenario: your project has two dependencies, made by two different developers: `left-pad` and `right-pad`. `left-pad` will format your hard drive if it geolocates you being in a state that allows X. `right-pad` will format your hard drive if it geolocates you being in a state that criminalizes X.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#89

Post by jddil » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

Oh good we're discussing this again.

The rancor this protest has caused in certain tech circles has really shown that we believe we're somehow different or better than the rest of the world.

In the real world 1 specific region has violated the norms the rest of us have agreed to ... you don't get to indiscriminately kill innocents while taking their land and has accted appropriately by cutting them off.

In the tech world we are screaming about how the people in that region are getting inconvenienced by the free tools we provide because we are supposed to be above "politics"

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#90

Post by shkkmo » Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

Latty wrote: post #34

Do people think the people protesting like this don't know that this is damaging? They presumably feel that the issue at hand is more important than that damage. Every protest every has been met with "but this protest is being done the wrong way, don't inconvenience me", but that's the point: protest has to disrupt things to make people take notice and make changes. Would I do this? No. I don't think it's effective o…

The problem is that that the node.js filesystem deletion "protests" was an indiscriminate digital attack that harmed people who are doing a much better job of actively opposing the invasion.

I believe that the developer who implemented that attack should face criminal charges. Our ability to trust our open source is a critical part of our economy. People who abuse that trust to directly harm others should know they will face criminal charges for their actions.