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Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

van-magazine.com

21–30 of 56 posts

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#21

Even worse to me is so many orchestras have to pay the bills with performances of Christmas music or orchestral versions of Motley Crue. Imagine putting in that many hours of practice on the classical masters to end up with a low paying job playing Frosty the Snowman and Def Leppard "Pour Some Sugar On Me".

>Imagine putting in that many hours of practice on the classical masters to end up with a low paying job playing Frosty the Snowman and Def Leppard "Pour Some Sugar On Me".

The vast majority of work in any given profession is lower tier work like this.

The electrician you paid to install a dimmer could be doing much more advanced work but he does what pays the bills.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#22
post #9

This seems to me like a job where the output quality of a worker is extremely difficult to measure; it's difficult to tell if one excellent musician is better than another excellent musician. Surely beyond a certain point, it's subjective. People tend to want to think of themselves as being objectively talented and as being deserving of credit; but in certain professions, there is no such thing. Art is rich people's…

Art -- as demonstrated by classical orchestras -- really isn't subjective at all. Talk to a professional musician, and it's all technique. Somewhere, deep down there at the bottom of it all, is a squishy place where an artist's passion and poetry is burning bright to fuel everything else...but by the time you get to an orchestral hall, everything you -- specifically as a non-professional musician -- will hear is objective technique you might expect an AI to be able to grade.

It's a very different beast from popular art that holds up Selene Gomez, and even then you'd be remiss to try to explain her success as the result of subjective judgements.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#23
post #9

This seems to me like a job where the output quality of a worker is extremely difficult to measure; it's difficult to tell if one excellent musician is better than another excellent musician. Surely beyond a certain point, it's subjective. People tend to want to think of themselves as being objectively talented and as being deserving of credit; but in certain professions, there is no such thing. Art is rich people's…

Subjectivity is certainly a part of it, like in any profession. But just being able to play that material requires years of training and practice. And the stuff that is subjective to the audience has to be worked out in objective terms by the members of the orchestra (most likely decided by the conductor) so that the performance sounds like it has a coherent style. Imagine variations on: "Let's play it this way instead of that way." And the musicians have to understand and physically implement those decisions instantly.

So the layer of subjectivity that the audience experiences is supported by a foundation of objective choices.

Now, if you hold an audition for a violinist, enough people will show up who can demonstrate those skills (the ultimate coding interview), that your final choice will be a toss-up, like in any profession.

And as in any profession, your self esteem has to come from within. I can't imagine basing my self esteem on what funds the IT industry. I know a lot of professional musicians. They tend to be fairly well adjusted people.

Disclosure: I'm at the next level down, a "semi professional" musician.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#24
IANAM (though I have relatives that are). My experience ion the corporate world is that HR exists to protect the organization, not to help the employees. The notion that orchestras need an HR organization to address musician's issues should be taken with a big grain of salt.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#25
post #2

I remember listening to a piano concerto + symphony one evening live at a concert hall and thinking how it was possible that this orchestra of 50+ plus a famous soloist makes money on our $100 tickets (best seats). Here we are paying $100 for 50 top notch world class musicians playing for 3 hours. There were maybe 500 people in the concert hall, so at an average ticket price of $50 each musician (split evenly) would…

When I'm at a classical music concert I feel strongly that I'm part of a culture . Here's music written 300 years ago that we're actively conspiring to conserve. None of it really makes any money - not for the musicians who have spent their lives getting good enough to play it, not for the mostly amateur promoters, not for the taxpayers who probably bear the bulk of the costs of the thing - but we do it anyway. Even…

Thank you for an excellent comment. It's added to the culture that is HN and the Internet.

Signed, a lowly but enthusiastic shitposter

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#26
post #9

This seems to me like a job where the output quality of a worker is extremely difficult to measure; it's difficult to tell if one excellent musician is better than another excellent musician. Surely beyond a certain point, it's subjective. People tend to want to think of themselves as being objectively talented and as being deserving of credit; but in certain professions, there is no such thing. Art is rich people's…

Art -- as demonstrated by classical orchestras -- really isn't subjective at all. Talk to a professional musician, and it's all technique. Somewhere, deep down there at the bottom of it all, is a squishy place where an artist's passion and poetry is burning bright to fuel everything else...but by the time you get to an orchestral hall, everything you -- specifically as a non-professional musician -- will hear is obje…

So, there's no objective artistic explanation for Selena Gomez; and all orchestral music played in a hall is objectively 'art'?

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#27
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you think how many of hours of study and rehearsal each of those musicians put into creating the 3 hours you enjoyed, it starts to look even better value.

Having spoken with a few professional orchestra muscicians, this doesn’t appear to be true. They have honed their craft enough that they only need one practice before any given performance.

While the old warhorses of the repertoire may need no preparations at all, new and challenging works need to be very well rehearsed for effective performances. From Charles Rosen's Freedom and the Arts:

>When a piece of harrison Birtwhistle was performed a few years ago in Paris by Boulez with his ensemble intercontemporain, i remarked to Boulez that i had never heard a work by that admirable composer sound so convincing and effective. “We had thirty-five rehearsals,” Boulez replied. This may seem excessive and it is beyond the means of most musical organizations today, but when Beethoven’s symphony no. 9 was undertaken during the late 1820s at the Paris Conservatoire, the first rehearsal was so terrible that it was rehearsed every day for a year. Berlioz reported that the result was a triumph, although it was conducted by habeneck, who was his deadly enemy.

>The music world has not changed as much as one might think. radically unfamiliar works require much more rehearsal than is practical when they first appear, before they can work their way into general musical consciousness: the first performance of elliott Carter’s double Concerto for harpsichord, Piano, and two small orchestras needed ten days of rehearsal; several years later, with a different orchestra that had never played the work, it needed only two days—the idiom had gradually permeated the musicians’ world. When hans rosbaud directed schoenberg’s Moses und Aron at the Zürich opera in 1957, he spent almost the entire budget of the year on rehearsals of this one work.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#28
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you think how many of hours of study and rehearsal each of those musicians put into creating the 3 hours you enjoyed, it starts to look even better value.

Having spoken with a few professional orchestra muscicians, this doesn’t appear to be true. They have honed their craft enough that they only need one practice before any given performance.

> They have honed their craft enough that they only need one practice

And how many (unpaid) hours, across how many years, did it take to "hone their craft" to such a degree?

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#29
post #9

This seems to me like a job where the output quality of a worker is extremely difficult to measure; it's difficult to tell if one excellent musician is better than another excellent musician. Surely beyond a certain point, it's subjective. People tend to want to think of themselves as being objectively talented and as being deserving of credit; but in certain professions, there is no such thing. Art is rich people's…

Performance is a part of music that is less subjective than composition or song writing. It is difficult for a lay person to measure differences between players at a professional level, but other professionals with a deep understanding of technique can.

The problem is that the industry has very few open positions and a good number of talented applicants. Imagine if every software engineering position had 100+ applicants and all of them could code very well, so you disqualified the 99 of them who had to use a backspace key more than once. This is what this industry is like.

(Have multiple orchestral musicians in my family)

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#30
post #14
post #9

This seems to me like a job where the output quality of a worker is extremely difficult to measure; it's difficult to tell if one excellent musician is better than another excellent musician. Surely beyond a certain point, it's subjective. People tend to want to think of themselves as being objectively talented and as being deserving of credit; but in certain professions, there is no such thing. Art is rich people's…

Thinking that performance is that subjective is a bit weird to me. I can’t imagine a world in which it eg. not being able to play precisely or fast would be considered better.

They said "beyond a certain point". I can't imagine a world where being able to play precisely or fast is what distinguishes B.B. King from some shredder on YouTube.
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