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Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

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Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#11

Post by BrandoElFollito »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #10
j7ake wrote: post #2

I remember listening to a piano concerto + symphony one evening live at a concert hall and thinking how it was possible that this orchestra of 50+ plus a famous soloist makes money on our $100 tickets (best seats). Here we are paying $100 for 50 top notch world class musicians playing for 3 hours. There were maybe 500 people in the concert hall, so at an average ticket price of $50 each musician (split evenly) would…

By comparison, how much do you earn per day? I think $500 per day would be a decent income for them, but as someone else pointed out, the venue probably takes up a big chunk, taxes another, the people involved that you don't see, etc so they wouldn't be getting that amount. And it's not like they have a 3 hour workday either, before that performance is going to be hours and hours of practice, years of training, and o…

The first part of your comment I agree with, the second is no different from any other qualified job.

I do not know how they are paid, but if they are on a salary then their job is similar to mine and others (from a general workload/pay perspective)

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#12

Post by prvc »

j7ake wrote: post #2

I remember listening to a piano concerto + symphony one evening live at a concert hall and thinking how it was possible that this orchestra of 50+ plus a famous soloist makes money on our $100 tickets (best seats). Here we are paying $100 for 50 top notch world class musicians playing for 3 hours. There were maybe 500 people in the concert hall, so at an average ticket price of $50 each musician (split evenly) would…

Typically orchestral musicians are paid salaries concomitant with other similarly high skilled professions, and orchestra budgets tend to be heavily subsidized. An HR department would inevitably be a substantial added expense.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#13

Post by socksset »

Even worse to me is so many orchestras have to pay the bills with performances of Christmas music or orchestral versions of Motley Crue.

Imagine putting in that many hours of practice on the classical masters to end up with a low paying job playing Frosty the Snowman and Def Leppard "Pour Some Sugar On Me".

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#14

Post by tgv »

cryptica wrote: post #9

This seems to me like a job where the output quality of a worker is extremely difficult to measure; it's difficult to tell if one excellent musician is better than another excellent musician. Surely beyond a certain point, it's subjective. People tend to want to think of themselves as being objectively talented and as being deserving of credit; but in certain professions, there is no such thing. Art is rich people's…

Thinking that performance is that subjective is a bit weird to me. I can’t imagine a world in which it eg. not being able to play precisely or fast would be considered better.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#15

Post by CrazyStat »

prvc wrote: post #12
j7ake wrote: post #2

I remember listening to a piano concerto + symphony one evening live at a concert hall and thinking how it was possible that this orchestra of 50+ plus a famous soloist makes money on our $100 tickets (best seats). Here we are paying $100 for 50 top notch world class musicians playing for 3 hours. There were maybe 500 people in the concert hall, so at an average ticket price of $50 each musician (split evenly) would…

Typically orchestral musicians are paid salaries concomitant with other similarly high skilled professions, and orchestra budgets tend to be heavily subsidized. An HR department would inevitably be a substantial added expense.

At top-level orchestras this is true. For example, at the New York Philharmonic minimum pay was about $150k pre-pandemic, cut to $110k during the pandemic[1].

It is not true at less prestigious orchestras, where salaries are much lower. For example, the San Antonio Symphony tried to lower its base salary from just under $36k to just under $18k this past year[2], which resulted in a prolonged strike (still unresolved 6 months later).

There are many more less-prestigious orchestras than top-level orchestras, so most orchestral musicians don't get paid salaries comparable to other similarly high skilled professions.

Professional music is not unlike professional sports in this regard.

[1] https://nonprofitquarterly.org/new-york-philharmonic-players...

[2] https://www.sacurrent.com/sanantonio/san-antonio-symphony-mu...

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#16

Post by jfk13 »

j7ake wrote: post #2

I remember listening to a piano concerto + symphony one evening live at a concert hall and thinking how it was possible that this orchestra of 50+ plus a famous soloist makes money on our $100 tickets (best seats). Here we are paying $100 for 50 top notch world class musicians playing for 3 hours. There were maybe 500 people in the concert hall, so at an average ticket price of $50 each musician (split evenly) would…

When you think how many of hours of study and rehearsal each of those musicians put into creating the 3 hours you enjoyed, it starts to look even better value.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#17

Post by emdowling »

In a former life, I worked as a stage and orchestra manager, including a few contracts with some of Australia's most well-known professional orchestras and opera companies. tl;dr: They work harder, for longer hours, than the vast majority of people in tech.

They will spend a full working day in rehearsal, then go home and spend a few hours doing solo practice. They will spend hours of time (often uncompensated) notating scores ahead of the first rehearsal of new work or production.

As others have pointed out, the economic model for orchestras and just about any live performance cannot support high salaries. Many musicians will have instruments worth thousands of dollars, so they will have loans against them. Then there is the venue and equipment hire, the transportation costs and the wages for the crew behind the scenes - people to set up the stage and run the show (like me), lighting and sound designers and operators, etc (14+ hour days are not uncommon).

It is a very hard way to earn a living, and on top of it all most jobs are contracts measured in weeks or months, not full-time positions. Not only do you have to be unbelievably talented and passionate about it, you also have to possess superhuman resilience to handle the lifestyle. I have nothing but respect to people who do this job for a living.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#18

Post by codegrappler »

jfk13 wrote: post #16
j7ake wrote: post #2

I remember listening to a piano concerto + symphony one evening live at a concert hall and thinking how it was possible that this orchestra of 50+ plus a famous soloist makes money on our $100 tickets (best seats). Here we are paying $100 for 50 top notch world class musicians playing for 3 hours. There were maybe 500 people in the concert hall, so at an average ticket price of $50 each musician (split evenly) would…

When you think how many of hours of study and rehearsal each of those musicians put into creating the 3 hours you enjoyed, it starts to look even better value.

Having spoken with a few professional orchestra muscicians, this doesn’t appear to be true. They have honed their craft enough that they only need one practice before any given performance.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#19

Post by jelsisi »

cryptica wrote: post #9

This seems to me like a job where the output quality of a worker is extremely difficult to measure; it's difficult to tell if one excellent musician is better than another excellent musician. Surely beyond a certain point, it's subjective. People tend to want to think of themselves as being objectively talented and as being deserving of credit; but in certain professions, there is no such thing. Art is rich people's…

Having played the violin for ~16 years and been in many competitions, I'd have to say it's fairly easy to differentiate musicians. There are pieces of music that push the the limit of what your fingers can do, and some interpretations generally win out over others.

Re: Orchestral musicians have unusually challenging jobs

#20

Post by j7ake »

socksset wrote: post #13

Even worse to me is so many orchestras have to pay the bills with performances of Christmas music or orchestral versions of Motley Crue. Imagine putting in that many hours of practice on the classical masters to end up with a low paying job playing Frosty the Snowman and Def Leppard "Pour Some Sugar On Me".

Probably analogous to mathematics professors who have to teach courses to students to sustain their salaries and research.
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