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Web3 is centralized and inefficient

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Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#621
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, did someone suggest to you that NFT's were a solution to this millennium old reality? Because they aren't. In both scenarios like on Reddit or your NFT version of the scenario, it is up to the consumer to discern (the person that buys a piece of work). These are consumer protection issues before NFTs and after NFTs. People buy non-original work, thats not an NFT problem. People might or might not be able to res…

> Its weird I have to even write that, but I guess I have seen people advertise NFTs as something they are not. So try not to be confused by that. You just stumbled on the problem. NFTs are inherently confusing . > you could check with the artist. Ugh. How do I check with the artist when I don't know who the artist is ?! That was precisely my point...in that reddit scenario I can only build consensus about ownership…

> Ugh. How do I check with the artist when I don't know who the artist is?!

If you have interacted in the NFT space, you'll see that consensus on who the artist is forms from the community. Many projects are posted in areas with the artist information there. These are GUI additions that the marketplaces and websites post. Linked Twitter accounts you name it. The NFT itself can also have metadata about the artist, and the image itself can also have metadata or EXIF data about the artist. The address on the blockchain which created the NFT code can also be linked to a particular person by that own person's admission at some point in the past or simultaneously. So all is possible, a centralized component, or a decentralized component but none of the semantics matter: it is possible to determine, unless it isn't, and if it isn't, maybe don't trade that piece of work? Really fascinating to me that this obligation has been shoved onto the technology instead of personal responsibility, I'm more so curious where other people talk about NFTs this way because I don't know where the confusion is coming from.

> So you solve one half of the equation (lineage and transfer of ownership) but not the other (origination ownership)?

The NFT standard does not prescribe these things, but for you it is possible to get these things, or to just simply ignore the ones that don't give you the assurances you hope for. It's a consumer issue, you have the choice of buying things that fit your criteria. Not an artist issue, not an NFT concept issue.

> Why on earth would an artist want to pursue that model if both aren't true?

Because the first half of the equation is light years ahead of the alternative already. The most attractive thing to artists is the royalties concept. This is also attractive to the communities of art purchasers, who want to support living artists but found it extremely hard to determine value and community beforehand or in the other art markets. Outside of NFTs, artists have to be celebrities or have hundreds of years of provenance to have a collective conscious on their value. It is extremely limiting and hard to maintain. Now it is very easy, so overnight things have changed.

It is useful to know that the ratified NFT standards do not have a way to send royalties after a trade, and the marketplaces themselves do that on the NFT's behalf (ie. when an NFT is traded within a marketplace, royalty information is read from the NFT metadata and funds are sent to the original creator. when an NFT is traded outside of a marketplace no royalties are sent. Some people are working on that.)

Also its quite simple: many artists are broke and have no other marketable skills. many other artists have developed other marketable skills but would rather be doing art, if they could exchange time for food and shelter doing it. NFTs are an opportunity for them so they'll take what it provides and let consumers inherit what it provides, and not waiting around for another millennium for origination of ownership to be solved with telepathy (but its also very easy to include who should be the creator of the art depicted and the NFT issued, so I really wonder about what you are experiencing to better understand why you think this is an issue with the NFT space or the NFT concept). Both parties need to be sure they are understanding what they are trading and what they aren't.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you extrapolate from one HN comment to all libertarians? You are interpreting the original comment as uncharitably as possible. "Additional Woodstocks" can be easily interpreted as "additional concerts similar to Woodstock" without changing the meaning of the comment. Also, you don't need unlimited resources to create new concerts, and you don't need the "snap of a finger", you simply need people who are motivated…

> So you extrapolate from one HN comment to all libertarians? Yes. Because all of their notions of "one true free market" require unlimited resources and ability to immediately create anything from scratch. > can be easily interpreted as "additional concerts similar to Woodstock" Same thing, different attempt to argue semantics. > Also, you don't need unlimited resources to create new concerts, and you don't need the…

The existence of the Ford fiesta model won't necessarily make a Lamborghini cheaper, but it does make the category "car" more affordable and provides an option for people on a budget.

The same applies to concerts.

Woodstock, due to various factors is able to charge a premium, but that doesn't mean you can't go to other concerts.

As more and more concerts are held, the premium that Woodstock can command is held in check, because people have other options.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#623
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes, a system where you can steal an unlimited amount of money from somebody else without any possibility of recourse by just saying that they agreed and hoping that nobody notices, clearly this is better than a trusted processor with strict legal obligations and easy reversibility in the event of error.

That isn't how it works at all. The whole reason that Bitcoin has smart contracting is to enable this kind of scalability without compromising the security. After all, all that fancy decentralized stuff wouldn't be useful if you had to go use a centralized server (or abandon security) to make use of it. Imagine you, me, and some of the other posters here decide we'd like to transact efficiently amongst ourselves with…

> Transact as you like, and if there is a dispute you take the relevant records to the blockchain and it enforces according to them.

This whole idea falls down once you realize that the blockchain knows nothing about what was actually transacted. Say I give you a piece of bread in exchange for 1 Satoshi, but never receive that Satoshi. A court of law can, in principle, coerce you to pay what you owe me, but the blockchain can do no such thing. Similarly, if you do pay me that Satoshi but I never give you the bread, you'll also never be able to convince the blockchain to reverse the transaction or make me give you the bread.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#625
post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which one did the creator use? That's the one that has legitimacy and value. Legitimacy is basically a coordination game, where you get the best payoff by making the same choice as everyone else. To really dig into this, read this piece by Vitalik: https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/03/23/legitimacy.html

> Which one did the creator use? That's the one that has legitimacy and value. This is exactly the crux. How do I prove who is the original creator? Vitalik's concept of legitimacy is based on EVERYONE participating. Which is simply not the case right now. To use his example: > Elon selling Elon's tweet is the real thing, and Jeff doing the same is not. Once again, millions of dollars of value are being controlled an…

> This is exactly the crux. How do I prove who is the original creator?

Consensus. We all agree that 0x123457890 is the "Bored Ape" contract, so everything spawned from it is a "real" Bored Ape. It's kind of how we all agree who the real "Picasso" is. This isn't really controversial or hard to grasp, and imo Vitalik's article just muddies the waters.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you extrapolate from one HN comment to all libertarians? Yes. Because all of their notions of "one true free market" require unlimited resources and ability to immediately create anything from scratch. > can be easily interpreted as "additional concerts similar to Woodstock" Same thing, different attempt to argue semantics. > Also, you don't need unlimited resources to create new concerts, and you don't need the…

The existence of the Ford fiesta model won't necessarily make a Lamborghini cheaper, but it does make the category "car" more affordable and provides an option for people on a budget. The same applies to concerts. Woodstock, due to various factors is able to charge a premium, but that doesn't mean you can't go to other concerts. As more and more concerts are held, the premium that Woodstock can command is held in che…

> The same applies to concerts.

The analogy is incorrect when what was claimed was: "So if the free-market price of the ticket is higher than the sales price, people should be producing additional Woodstocks until the prices match"

> As more and more concerts are held, the premium that Woodstock can command is held in check, because people have other options.

- 6-day festival pass to Sziget is 315 EUR (~$346).

- Glastonbury (5 days) tickets are ~$365.

So, in check, according to you. And then...

- Coachella $449 and up

- Burning Man (which is not even a concert per se) is $525 and up (some tickets are sold at $2500)

And then...

- Justin Bieber can easily ask for 1000 dollars per ticket and more.

And so on.

Even though, according to you and @FeepingCreature, it's enough to just create another Sziget/Glastonbury/Coachella/Bieber for the prices to go down to an equilibrium.

Oh and there will be no scalpers.

Even though already, now, no one is stopping you from creating thousands of concerts.... and yet the price for those discussed doesn't go down, and scalpers exist.

Same for any sporting events etc.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#627

This article doesn't even explain how web3 is centralized (it is in many ways). All I see is some stupid non-technical blog trying to orient blockchain as part of the enemy along with "wh*te", "0.1%", and "bro". The irony is that this is a techbro-tier article.

There's a few examples on how it is centralized, not sure what you were looking for?

A tangile explanation.

Metamask is centralized. That part is true. Metamask should be removed along with anything else that remotely resembles a web browser, especially stuff that relies on a web browser which is the complete antithesis of centralization (but oops, I covered too much already 150% more than what the article goes into).

Saying mining is centralized is like saying natural resources are centralized, which may or may not be true, and is not covered in the article.

The article hand waves about efficiency but seems to only be referring to the inefficiency of bitcoin and no other blockchain.

An explanation on why proof of stake is centralized is also missing. From what I understand, it all relies on a bootstrapped list of validators to get the right chain. And after that, it relies on some subset of those validators to not collude.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#628
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't how it works at all. The whole reason that Bitcoin has smart contracting is to enable this kind of scalability without compromising the security. After all, all that fancy decentralized stuff wouldn't be useful if you had to go use a centralized server (or abandon security) to make use of it. Imagine you, me, and some of the other posters here decide we'd like to transact efficiently amongst ourselves with…

> Transact as you like, and if there is a dispute you take the relevant records to the blockchain and it enforces according to them. This whole idea falls down once you realize that the blockchain knows nothing about what was actually transacted. Say I give you a piece of bread in exchange for 1 Satoshi, but never receive that Satoshi. A court of law can, in principle, coerce you to pay what you owe me, but the block…

The ancestor post was about not needing to place every transaction directly into the blockchain, to which someone replied assuming that doing so would eliminate the security, to which I explained it did not eliminate the security. My apologies for using broad language which could be read as implying that any possible dispute could be settled that way-- that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

HOWEVER, you're not entirely correct for two reasons:

(1) There is a much wider class of transactions that can be made cheat proof than you might expect. If, for example, I were purchasing machine validable information from you that could be made resolvable https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-conting...

(2) Even when that's not possible-- when you transact you can use excrow transactions to specify that any monotone function of additional key holders can release the funds. In the simpliest form, the transfer requires you me and an arbitrator. So you could make it so that if there is a dispute one or more other parties have to approve the outcome-- which could be a court or a private arbitrator (or some quorum of arbitrators, if you like). There the third party isn't eliminated, but it's made very flexible.

As an aside, in US legal tradition civil courts do not usually award specific performance -- I might get my money back and damages, but they won't make you give me bread you promised to give me. (2) is similarly limited, but (1) isn't if applies and you don't choose for it to be.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#629
If you store your webapp on IPFS, and connect to the blockchain. Then its truly decentralized. We need browsers to support IPFS... Even when blockchain fails, IPFS will be a big. Especially if we are going to be a multi-planetary species.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I use $payment_processor/card_network then I need to trust a corporation again. I don’t want to do that due to bad experiences. Yes, unfortunately mining is too profitable with the current prices, we need it to go back to a much lower price. Probably won’t happen for a long time (bubbles can exist for decades). Bitcoin can in theory transact more volume than VISA while using the same energy as it is now since th…

The payment processor is the party to the transaction whose trust is least dangerous. You swipe at the grocery store, what's Visa gonna do, not record your transaction? Why is that the only part of the exchange that you're worried about? Why is it them you want to stop trusting, and not the POS terminal manufacturer who could be lying about the total on the screen? Or the grocery store you're buying from who could be…

I hope you and your machete of common sense are not allowed into any meetings to ruin any big deals! billions are being raised right now to do web3 things, which we dont know what they are. who are you to ruin this ecstasy of grift?

what scares me is that I dont really have any idea of what the really good useful investable things are underlying all this bullshit, because I trained up in computer programming and time series analysis and trading and machine learning not crypto. so while I can squint and see that like in authentication maybe, or maybe tokenizing assets, or maybe that distributed name service, some of it is interesting, but why are we putting billions into all this crap instead of electrolysis or better fission reactors, or biotech to create chemicals without oil, or ammonia, we are investing in this behavioral social tech which feeds off of, and amplifies, our worst social traits?

it doesn't even help us with our number one collective behavioral shortcoming which is how to reach consensus about externalized problems. it just encourages more externalization so that VCs can make money. I love money but I dont like society choosing only to solve the easy problems while neglecting everything else.

I dont think we can live in crypto fantasy land for example while all the new supply chain problems create real new challenges which require trillions of investment to fix. "how I pay for things" kind of pales in comparison to "why cant we manufacture electronics"

Maybe I am wrong

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