Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A contrarian take on working long hours

allisonpickens.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 127 posts

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#101

Post by stuxnet79 »

pleb_nz wrote: post #58

Is this an American thing to work super long hours? Most people I know and work with do less than 40 and aim to be more efficient at delivering in less time. I had a friend who worked in the states for GE and he mentioned people just had to be seen to be in the office for at least 12 hours a day even if there was nothing to do. Is this kind of culture real?

Very real unfortunately. After having worked with US clients now it is one of the things about US business culture that I find problematic. Companies publicly celebrate and reward those who work unreasonably long hours even though this doesn't correlate with actual productivity / efficiency.

It also adds toxicity to the work environment as those working long hours start to have little respect for people that set boundaries. The worst situation to be in is working for a manager who is a workaholic. Despite what they say they will absolutely judge you for setting boundaries and it will affect your career prospects.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#103

Post by sheepybloke »

TameAntelope wrote: post #13

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

I agree with you, and based on how adversarial the comments are on this comment, I think you have the real "contrarian take on working long hours."

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#104

Post by justin_oaks »

paxys wrote: post #18

I went in prepared to read the "contrarian" take that working long hours can actually be good, but it is just stating the obvious. Working for over a decade in silicon valley, I have yet to come across a company or group where the majority opinion has been that people must work more than 8 hours a day to succeed. I'm not sure if there ever was a time when overworking was a norm in the industry, but it definitely has…

I believe that most management just want people to do more work for the same amount of money. It's less about how many hours are necessary to succeed, it's about "how much more can I squeeze out of my employees."

Those companies that are experimenting with work schedules are also trying to squeeze more out of their employees... just in a different way. They may recognize that causing employees to burn-out is a problem and are looking for ways to optimize the employee output.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing to optimize for employees generating better output. It's only bad when employee morale is completely ignored.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#105

Post by qnsi »

listenallyall wrote: post #49

This is meta-strange. Bragging about long hours makes someone sound ridiculous, like a humblebrag that is actually the opposite of a brag. But it's also ridiculous to claim to be "terrified" to write a blog post in which 98% of the audience agrees, actually just thinks it's common sense.

I am not in SF but follow a lot of people there. My intuition is a lot of them promote long hours. I also worked in a few startups in Poland and all of them promoted long hours. I think the idea of working hard is real in startup scene, even though posters here might disagree. Take notice of most of us here are engineers, not business people

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#106

Post by _moof »

TameAntelope wrote: post #13

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

Mark my words: in a matter of years, you're going to be a husk. Ask me how I know.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#107

Post by kelseyfrog »

csydas wrote: post #63
leksak wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be one of the people that were ascribed the "talented" label. It opened a lot of doors, and I've had a career that initially was deemed as more successful than that of my peers. However, after burning out twice I've never recovered the ability of doing _anything cognitive_ other than physical exercise for extended durations of time. I no longer get called talented, and things are a lot more challenging ---…

I get that. For me this works because I gave myself permission to do what I think US culture (where I grew up) forbids us to do; set clear boundaries. Not acting rude or harsh to people, but instead just being honest and protective of our time, both work and personal. I do have a reputation of being "difficult to work with" from some people, but almost universally those who have that perception are the ones making he…

> I gave myself permission to ... set clear boundaries.

My biggest career regret is that I fell into the trap of not setting boundaries for fifteen years. What is clear to many people now was not to me then. Even now, I'm learning the basics like that there are different types of boundaries and in business which ones are most important to set and what happens if they aren't set.

Time-boundaries, for example, are commonly discussed, but equally important are socio-emotional boundaries. Have you ever stopped to realize that you talk to a lot of people daily, but lack emotional support or the deeper connections that come from being emotionally vulnerable? I have. It's easy to surround oneself with work friendships that only ever touch on surface-level topics. Having a clear emotional boundary helps create space for emotionally meaningful connections outside of work. That's a lesson I wish I didn't have to learn the hard way.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#108

Post by justin_oaks »

TameAntelope wrote: post #13

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

Many of us "only" work 40 hours at our paid employment, but do loads more hours for our other jobs:

- Maintaining our relationship with our spouse

- Caring for our children

- Contributing in our community (neighborhood, friends, church, hobby group, open source project, etc.)

---

Those coworkers who get bent out of shape are probably concerned that you're raising the employer's expectations of their employees.

They may also be concerned about you personally. Your coworkers may feel that putting so much time into your employment is unhealthy for you, even if you don't realize it. From their point of view, they can't understand how you can work like that and be healthy and happy. To you that may feel annoying and judgmental, but it comes from a place of concern and care.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#109

Post by kradeelav »

csydas wrote: post #63
leksak wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be one of the people that were ascribed the "talented" label. It opened a lot of doors, and I've had a career that initially was deemed as more successful than that of my peers. However, after burning out twice I've never recovered the ability of doing _anything cognitive_ other than physical exercise for extended durations of time. I no longer get called talented, and things are a lot more challenging ---…

I get that. For me this works because I gave myself permission to do what I think US culture (where I grew up) forbids us to do; set clear boundaries. Not acting rude or harsh to people, but instead just being honest and protective of our time, both work and personal. I do have a reputation of being "difficult to work with" from some people, but almost universally those who have that perception are the ones making he…

+1 to setting time and emotional boundaries. Lasted through way too many different design teams that all inevitably burnt out because the folks there (all very kind, compassionate, talented people) weren't willing to make that a hill they were willing to die on.

Earlier last week, used the metaphor of putting on your oxygen mask "first" in case of an airplane catastrophe, before putting on anyone else's mask, even your child's - think that's quite apt here.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#110

Post by closeparen »

paxys wrote: post #18

I went in prepared to read the "contrarian" take that working long hours can actually be good, but it is just stating the obvious. Working for over a decade in silicon valley, I have yet to come across a company or group where the majority opinion has been that people must work more than 8 hours a day to succeed. I'm not sure if there ever was a time when overworking was a norm in the industry, but it definitely has…

The pattern is very simple: status update and collaboration meetings grow to consume the official workday. Perhaps not 100% cover, but with few and short enough gaps that you can't really work in them. To the extent that your survival or advancement at the company depends on actually doing some work (this is not guaranteed!) you need to do it on your own time.
Post reply on HN