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Web3 is centralized and inefficient

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471–480 of 769 posts

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#471
It is hard to advocate for the value of decentralized systems without sounding like a hand-waving conspiracy theorist.

The benefits of decentralization do come at a cost of efficiency and throughput and they are often harder to quantify or justify unless one takes a harder look at the fully loaded cost of centralization.

As an example, consider the fact that MacDonald’s is by far the most prolific restaurant in the world or that GMO crops undoubtedly yield more productivity per acre than heirloom crops. In both cases centralization and standardization of the process has led to huge productivity gains, but at what expense? What have we lost in the process?

I would argue that monoculture and food homogenization engineered to maximize calories out per $ in have come at the cost of diversity.

Diversity of ideas, strategies, goals, ownership and agency all result in a society that, while productive, is less resilient.

Look at the various fungal plagues that have blighted banana production over the years. Monoculture brought huge yields but at the expense of resilience as a single fungus nearly wiped out the original Gros Michel variety and now a new fungus threatens the same for the Cavendish.

Similarly, Bitcoin is an inefficient network for transmitting fiat compared to Visa when measured against the criteria payment networks are usually measured on. Ethereum takes huge resources to run the equivalent of a Raspberry Pi as a global state machine.

Measuring decentralized systems vs centralized purely on efficiency and throughput kind of misses the forest for the trees. Decentralized systems have value that isn’t always obvious to a superficial analysis such as this one. That doesn’t mean they should be ignored. Often the largest paradigm shifts look like toys to start. (See Clayton Christianson and disruptive innovation.)

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#472
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If blockchain had never been invented, we'd be a lot farther ahead. BitTorrent proves the idea can work. And Tox is already totally usable, aside from it's mobile data usage. Federation is the other problem. It's decentralized without real end user benefits other that a bit of censorship resistance, within the limits of the hosting company. It doesn't add reliability or offline communications on the LAN.

"a bit of censorship resistance" tell that to the russians right now, or to all the other 3. world countrys whose only hope for usable currency is bitcoin

Okay, now think about that a little more carefully:

1. Russia's problem is that other countries are choosing not to do business with them. The mechanism doesn't change that (China and India will do business, at a hefty discount, but that's true for gold, too) and Bitcoin adds some risks because the blockchain model is perfect for enabling censorship because it not only allows people to avoid transactions with sanctioned entities up front but adds retroactive risk: if you accept Bitcoin from someone on that list your transactions and everyone downstream can also be blocked, driving down the value of those coins and reducing your potential buyers.

2. If your concern is censorship by the government where you live, think very carefully about whether you'd want to be someone in Russia using an application which requires a great deal of very easily detected network activity and maintains a full public transaction history for the convenience of the cops who just illegally searched your phone. Each time someone you've interacted with is compromised, they now have a hard record to go after everyone else in their history so you're not just at risk at the time of the transaction (as with cash) but for years afterwards, hoping that nobody you know has been compromised and wondering whether the police are monitoring you to see whether you lead them to anyone more interesting.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#473
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I own every single node it doesn’t guarantee that.

If you are the sole person keeping records for a large company in your personal desk drawer, it also doesn't guarantee that. But nobody designs a process like that.

By “I”, I mean a single company.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

' My interest for running a node was ... to attempt to counter frontrunning aka sandwich attacks. ' You may have misunderstood the eth tech stack. Running your own node is not a means to prevent sandwich attacks.

Can you not you "see" more transactions, faster...?

The block producer chooses transaction ordering. They control who gets sandwiched. Running your own node won't change anything.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#476
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If blockchain had never been invented, we'd be a lot farther ahead. BitTorrent proves the idea can work. And Tox is already totally usable, aside from it's mobile data usage. Federation is the other problem. It's decentralized without real end user benefits other that a bit of censorship resistance, within the limits of the hosting company. It doesn't add reliability or offline communications on the LAN.

"a bit of censorship resistance" tell that to the russians right now, or to all the other 3. world countrys whose only hope for usable currency is bitcoin

Russia is not a third world country. Rather, it is a second world country.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems you’re describing are problems of the internet, not decentralization. Few could’ve predicted what the initial rules of the internet would generate after a few decades. We can learn from the outcome and come up with new rules. The point about how “people want centralized systems” reminds me of the initial response to Apple’s privacy strategy. At the time, it was met with skepticism, to say the least. Priv…

Apple suggested that people would care about privacy, and there was skepticism. Of course, privacy had been the status quo in an earlier era of the internet, and the lack of privacy didn't enable much in terms of novel user experience (turns out all the crap about "people would rather have personalized ads" was crap). Now a crowd of people are suggesting something very different: that people wouldn't care about givin…

But it wasn't just "open competition." Many actions of the centralized de-facto internet monopolies of today (Facebook, Google, etc) were—and continue to be—horribly anticompetitive.

Furthermore, just like in the offline world, "open competition" doesn't consider externalities, like the loss of privacy, and the massive social and political influence that these behemoths have gained.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#478

"People don’t want to run their own servers, and never will". Moxie Marlinspike https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html

It’s called choice. There are a panoply of email providers yet only one Twitter. And you don’t need to add any DKIM nonsense to get the blockchain to accept transactions broadcast from your own node.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#479
post #97

People use centralized systems because they actually like the convenience that comes with it. And with that, comes the decentralized system changing in such a way that it changes to almost NEEDING centralization. The problem is that engineers and cybersecurity people all think that everyone else thinks like they do, when in actuality the complete opposite is true. The biggest example is the internet itself - the inte…

It's creative destruction. When you decentralize, you are destroying institutions and tradition that are slowing us down. That doesn't mean you don't want new ones to rise up in their place. It's not that centralization is bad, it's just that _sometimes you centralize the wrong thing_ and this is how you fix it.

Re: Web3 is centralized and inefficient

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A public ledger is not inherently valuable. A trusted ledger is valuable, but a ledger doesn't have to be public to be trusted. When I swipe my card at the grocery store, I'm not shaking in my boots with my fingers crossed, doubting whether the transaction will be recorded as transmitted or not. If for some looney toons secret agent reason you need a transaction to be public, you can tweet a picture of the receipt. O…

> A trusted ledger is valuable, but a ledger doesn't have to be public to be trusted. When I swipe my card at the grocery store, I'm not shaking in my boots with my fingers crossed, doubting whether the transaction will be recorded as transmitted or not. Of course, because as the customer nothing bad happens to you if it’s not. Worst case scenario, the merchant doesn’t accept your payment and you either have to pay w…

First of all, being public does nothing to change that scenario.

Second of all, abusing chargebacks when a vendor upheld their side of an agreement is a crime, and if you can prove that you delivered the goods as the consumer requested, the chargeback can be reversed. This is not a problem with the system.

The way that blockchain "solves" this non-problem is by making the transaction record immutable, so that no transaction can ever be undone, no longer how fraudulent or illegal. That's why the main users of blockchain technology these days, aside from speculators, is scammers and theives, because once you have somebody's crypto money, it is technologically impossible to ever return it to its rightful owner, even with a court order.

Theft on the blockchain has already surpassed all other financial theft in the world pre-2016. Getting access to people's keys, or tricking them into authorizing a transaction, or writing malware into smart contracts has enabled a golden age of theft that cannot be undone.

Immutability does not imply correctness.

> Unless a ledger is public and independently verifiable

You say this as if those things are connected. They are not. Your credit card transaction ledger is already independently verifiable, with the magical future technologies known as "receipts" and "bank statements".

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