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Launch HN: Reality Defender (YC W22) – Deepfake Detection Platform

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Launch HN: Reality Defender (YC W22) – Deepfake Detection Platform

#71

Post by panarky »

ehnto wrote: post #65
jcadam wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biggest fear is people being put in prison based on deepfake video evidence.

At some point it might make video evidence inadmissible. I imagine a tool like Reality Defender offers could be used in court to tackle this, but now Reality Defender itself needs verification. Like all tools used to verify evidence I suppose. Is a negative from Reality Defender enough to prove that a video is real, or is it only valid proof when it's proving it's fake?

It's not about verification, it's about reasonable doubt.

Re: Launch HN: Reality Defender (YC W22) – Deepfake Detection Platform

#72

Post by ehnto »

panarky wrote: post #71
ehnto wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point it might make video evidence inadmissible. I imagine a tool like Reality Defender offers could be used in court to tackle this, but now Reality Defender itself needs verification. Like all tools used to verify evidence I suppose. Is a negative from Reality Defender enough to prove that a video is real, or is it only valid proof when it's proving it's fake?

It's not about verification, it's about reasonable doubt.

Right, but verification is the opposite direction of doubt. It's not that verification is a boolean true or false for the evidence, it just helps remove doubt. For example, CCTV footage verified to be pulled from a service station by the police is less easy to doubt CCTV footage provided by a friend of the accused. Adding a verification paper trail to that makes it even harder to doubt. DNA test results provided by the defendant are worth nothing unless they're verified by a paper trail that's trusted.

So back to Reality Defender, why shouldn't we doubt Reality Defenders positive or negative results? There would need to be a period of verification and testing that "proves" within a reasonable margin that it works.

Re: Launch HN: Reality Defender (YC W22) – Deepfake Detection Platform

#75

Post by throwaway2n32 »

> After investigating, we learned why a consistently accurate solution didn’t exist.

There is no way to prove 100% solution can exist. If a similar tool is used to verify the evidence of a video in legal setting, then it's just a matter of time an innocent person ends up behind the bars. The only way is for the society to adapt to the fake videos not to rely on a tool that can never be correct.

Re: Launch HN: Reality Defender (YC W22) – Deepfake Detection Platform

#76

Post by _0ffh »

rockemsockem wrote: post #67
sigil wrote: post #36

I too wonder whether cryptographic signatures will be the long run solution to deepfakes. Can you outline why you don't think that will be the case? Here's an alt solution to argue against: 1. The necessary PKI gets bootstrapped by social media companies, where deepfakes begin to seriously threaten their "all-in-on-video" strategy, and simultaneously look like an opportunity to layer on some extra blue-check-style ve…

Not OP, but personally I'd love to see this sort of tech baked directly into smartphones and cameras. Your camera could have tamper-proof hardware that embeds signatures like you describe into the metadata of your video/photos while you take them. Sure, the user can separate it, but like you said over time people just won't trust photos/videos without this assurance. Apps like snapchat that let you apply filters coul…

No, absolutely not. This will only serve to prop up a false confidence in correctly signed videos. So in the end you're giving all the power to black hat groups and three letter services that can procure the secret keys from the camera vendors. Face it: Video proof is as good as dead, to delude yourself into thinking anything else is extremely dangerous.

Re: Launch HN: Reality Defender (YC W22) – Deepfake Detection Platform

#77

Post by bambax »

Great idea, and a very necessary thing. Congratulations on the launch!

There's a guy on Reddit who restores old photographs in an interesting way. He says he finds bits and pieces in recent stock images, that he cuts and pastes and adjusts until it looks perfect. So it's a kind of deepfake HI (vs. AI).

Here's an example of his work: https://i.redd.it/eeoz0hvvwvo81.png

Maybe not your target market ATM -- although this talent could be used to make very convincing fake images.

Re: Launch HN: Reality Defender (YC W22) – Deepfake Detection Platform

#78

Post by fxtentacle »

bpcrd wrote: post #64
fxtentacle wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came here to write that. Me and my friends have a competition to get a (obviously CGI) picture of my living room filled with gold coins past those "is that photo real" platforms. So far, none has stood up to the test. The worst one so far was TruePic, who even gave me a certificate of authenticity and then kept that certification PDF online on their website until they heard about us openly mocking them, and then th…

We're up for the challenge! Send us your images / videos (ask@realitydefender.ai) and we'll send you the results!

I'll wait until you have a public API. The trick with reinforcement learning is that I need the feedback from what triggered your system to determine how to modify my image to bypass it.

Re: Launch HN: Reality Defender (YC W22) – Deepfake Detection Platform

#79

Post by miunau »

smt88 wrote: post #51
cphoover wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have an immutable centralized/federated system without using "crypto" though "proof-of-work", there are databases out there that provide immutable storage that don't require this overhead. Providing api access to a signed immutable database makes sense... but I'm not sure how much sense utilizing existing popular cryptocurrencies would make (e.g. bitcoin, etherium)

You need cryptography for hashing and verifying the integrity of any copy of the database. You probably don't need proof of work, you're right.

Proof of work is not needed, just a pool of time servers that you can make a quorum out of. We're working on exactly this on top of roughtime (https://roughtime.googlesource.com/roughtime) for a future version of QR Date (https://qrdate.org/)

Re: Launch HN: Reality Defender (YC W22) – Deepfake Detection Platform

#80

Post by spuz »

rdrdg wrote: post #59
jka wrote: post #53

Hey - great and important idea. Have you discussed / looked into sampling environmental radio noise at various frequencies and locations and then interpolating samples of them within the video and audio itself at recording-time? (ideally along with some kind of near-unfalsifiable timestamp signals and/or device keys to confirm that "yes, this unique device was here at this time and the proof is within the pudding)

Currently, we are consider image, video and audio data types. This multi-modal idea sounds interesting none the less, thanks for sharing :)

There are companies that already provide this kind of service so it might be interesting for you to combine efforts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0elNU0iOMY

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