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A contrarian take on working long hours

allisonpickens.substack.com

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Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#61

Post by 10000truths »

kranner wrote: post #35
10000truths wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a needlessly adversarial take. An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation.

Hardly needless. Employers throw out faithful and dedicated employees all the time, even in ageist industries where it is difficult for them to find another job. I saw this happen to a close friend's father; their financial stability crumbled. He seemed to have aged 10 years overnight. It was quite a few years before I saw him not visibly depressed. Despite being a talented engineer (not in software) he never found a…

In an employer throws you out, then they ostensibly don’t value you enough to keep paying you.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#62

Post by britch »

csydas wrote: post #20

I think that mostly I agree with the author, that there is a religious following of the long hours/never sleep work model. What has worked for me, as I am over worked and spend far too much time on meetings at all off hours, is flexible hours instead of rigid ones. My day blends a lot more, as I have periods of work and periods of "life". Instead of a rigid 8 hour block, work is just one of those chores I do, and I a…

Interesting, thanks for sharing this. I'm curious how you know you've "worked enough"?

I find that I'm someone who works well in nonstandard hours and would like to take this approach to work.

At the same time I find the "work whenever" structure very dangerous for me. There's always more that needs to be done than I can fit in a day. It's really easy for me to spending most of my day thinking about work or working, even when I'm doing something else.

Maybe I'm just not built for this kind of work, but I'm curious if you have a technique for dealing with this kind of thing

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#63

Post by csydas »

leksak wrote: post #31
csydas wrote: post #20

I think that mostly I agree with the author, that there is a religious following of the long hours/never sleep work model. What has worked for me, as I am over worked and spend far too much time on meetings at all off hours, is flexible hours instead of rigid ones. My day blends a lot more, as I have periods of work and periods of "life". Instead of a rigid 8 hour block, work is just one of those chores I do, and I a…

I used to be one of the people that were ascribed the "talented" label. It opened a lot of doors, and I've had a career that initially was deemed as more successful than that of my peers. However, after burning out twice I've never recovered the ability of doing _anything cognitive_ other than physical exercise for extended durations of time. I no longer get called talented, and things are a lot more challenging ---…

I get that. For me this works because I gave myself permission to do what I think US culture (where I grew up) forbids us to do; set clear boundaries.

Not acting rude or harsh to people, but instead just being honest and protective of our time, both work and personal. I do have a reputation of being "difficult to work with" from some people, but almost universally those who have that perception are the ones making heavy demands on my time because they themselves cannot influence the resolution. Sales managers, customer success managers, they spam meetings and unplanned calls and emails with no more content than "this has to be resolved yesterday" and other cliches. I have no qualms just outright ignoring them or calling them out for violating procedure/policy.

The same types that just want to keep a channel of updates open and to help buy time? Much better relationships as they understand the process more and respect people's time.

Basically there is a stress aspect, and it's not for everyone. For me, having those firm boundaries and being honest with myself that this is my time and it's my choice, I don't need to feel guilty for protecting it, it helped a lot

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#64

Post by rgavuliak »

TameAntelope wrote: post #13

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

It's weird, but I think you are right. For context, I worked like you for most of my career and only recently joined a scale up that has very strong work life balance. It feels like the people don't care and I am demotivated. When my tech lead told me that if he'd be expected to work overtime he'd quit (he's great otherwise).

I kept telling myself it's good for me because I have a baby now, but the truth is I found another job to do over evenings and I feel less and less motivated at my day job. When you say that you enjoy working with people that are not 9-5, it resonates strongly.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#65

Post by [deleted] »

TameAntelope wrote: post #42
dQw4w9WgXcQ wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you're posting some giant message about how much you work means it's unlikely you are truly working as many hours as you think. Use a tomato timer and hit the "Start" button every time you're truly doing work and "Stop" button when you're not. Bathroom breaks, employee chats, heating up lunches, break walks, posting on HN, etc... All that shit doesn't count. Get back to us with the #s after you've done…

I completed 32 pomodoros last week, which is above my average of ~25 for the past year and change, and a lot of my job isn't focused work, and none of that pomodoro time included any of the project management, meetings, or conversations I had with the team to figure out what we're up to, what the problems are, and what we're doing next. But that's not the point. The point is the 9-5ers have held the higher moral grou…

[deleted]

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#66

Post by tonyedgecombe »

laserlight wrote: post #51
TameAntelope wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completed 32 pomodoros last week, which is above my average of ~25 for the past year and change, and a lot of my job isn't focused work, and none of that pomodoro time included any of the project management, meetings, or conversations I had with the team to figure out what we're up to, what the problems are, and what we're doing next. But that's not the point. The point is the 9-5ers have held the higher moral grou…

Is 32 pomodoros equal to 32*25 = 800 minutes (13h 20m)?

Something doesn't add up with their comments does it.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#67

Post by csydas »

britch wrote: post #62
csydas wrote: post #20

I think that mostly I agree with the author, that there is a religious following of the long hours/never sleep work model. What has worked for me, as I am over worked and spend far too much time on meetings at all off hours, is flexible hours instead of rigid ones. My day blends a lot more, as I have periods of work and periods of "life". Instead of a rigid 8 hour block, work is just one of those chores I do, and I a…

Interesting, thanks for sharing this. I'm curious how you know you've "worked enough"? I find that I'm someone who works well in nonstandard hours and would like to take this approach to work. At the same time I find the "work whenever" structure very dangerous for me. There's always more that needs to be done than I can fit in a day. It's really easy for me to spending most of my day thinking about work or working,…

Sure, for me I focus on a few aspects:

1. What are the high priority projects? 2. What must have my attention? What can be delegated and monitored? What can be delegated and forgotten? What is in our responsibilities and what needs to be redirected? 3. What is a personally engaging project I want to work on to stay excited?

1 and 3 are the ones I get careful about and closely monitor myself to see how tired I am and how my thoughts are; since a lot of my work is not just technical but also communication of this to a lot of persons (internal and external), I take the time to be very aware of my mood and my thoughts and feelings. If I'm feeling angry or grumpy towards everything, it's time to stop because this will bleed into my work and I've worked enough. I force myself to send an update that I will have something more substantial later and a brief summary of where we are at.

For technical items, I kind of let the linter tell me how many mistakes I'm making ;) If the linter is working hard, probably it means I'm just too tired to be effective, and it's time to write down my current thoughts and plans in the next 5 minutes and call it for them, and either rest for the day or relax a little

I constantly violate schedules so task lists and timers don't work for me. I prefer an ultimate deadline and I'll manage my way there. On a day to day basis I just decide what my task list is and the priority and then go one by one.

Hope this gives some inspiration.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#68

Post by tonyedgecombe »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #6
smackeyacky wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I started working for myself, I do find periods of time where long hours are the norm. Most of the time I stick to a more regular schedule, but when I was building an MVP I put in long hours because taking a break meant having to re-learn how all the code went together. Once I had made the various breakthroughs, I backed off again. Then later, when working with our first customers I found myself working long ho…

That's fine when working for yourself, you clearly stand to gain by putting in longer hours from time to time. I recently resigned from a job where it was becoming clear the business wanted to set unrealistic deadlines and just expected devs to work extra to meet them. This company didn't offer shares or even have a bonus structure in place. It is not ok to expect your employees to work extra to meet your (frankly un…

>That's fine when working for yourself, you clearly stand to gain by putting in longer hours from time to time.

I'm not so sure, I suspect all the reasons it's bad for an employee are equally true for a founder.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#69

Post by DocTomoe »

d--b wrote: post #23

All comments so far are about how mainstream that view is. But it’s not my experience at all. Every time I interview for a position, people brag about how dedicated their team is and ask if I am willing to put in the hard work and all. I’ve literally never ever heard any recruiter say: “oh we work smart here, you know. We just spend the right amount of time so that everyone’s productivity is best”.

You may need to interview outside of that geographical area, maybe in Europe. I've been working for a firm that almost verbatim said those words in the interview - and after some acclimatisation (in which I felt horrible for "only" working 8 hours a day), no amount of promised compensation would drag me back.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#70

Post by onion2k »

Terry_Roll wrote: post #55
onion2k wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation. If someone on my team chose to work 80 hours a week because they loved what they do then I would actively discourage them, and remove them from the team if they continued. Having someone like that around has several negative impacts; - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to k…

> - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to keep up with features or testing. That leads to more staff churn. It shouldnt do though, your team should be able to work any number of hours and still be productive because things like illness, pregnancy, deaths, holidays occur and they are not always expected or planned. > - It's harder to have discussions…

Seems like a rehash of point 1 and that shouldnt matter.

I'll clarify then. Point 1 is that people get annoyed having to work with someone who puts in more time because it makes their work harder. Point 3 is that if people see that someone got a raise or a promotion because they put more hours in, then they will think they won't get a raise or a promotion unless they put more hours in. They will see working longer hours as the barrier to advancement, and if they don't want to do that they'll leave.

I sense you despise individualism which might explain why so many people go work for themselves.

Saying I "despise individualism" is a bit melodramatic. I've run teams for the last 20 years or so and I've enough experience to understand that a good, well-motivated team of devs who communicate well and collaborate on a common goal is far more effective in the long term than a team who have a lone dev who's happy to grind out code in the middle of the night.

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