Live data from Hacker News

A contrarian take on working long hours

allisonpickens.substack.com

51–60 of 127 posts

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you're posting some giant message about how much you work means it's unlikely you are truly working as many hours as you think. Use a tomato timer and hit the "Start" button every time you're truly doing work and "Stop" button when you're not. Bathroom breaks, employee chats, heating up lunches, break walks, posting on HN, etc... All that shit doesn't count. Get back to us with the #s after you've done…

I completed 32 pomodoros last week, which is above my average of ~25 for the past year and change, and a lot of my job isn't focused work, and none of that pomodoro time included any of the project management, meetings, or conversations I had with the team to figure out what we're up to, what the problems are, and what we're doing next. But that's not the point. The point is the 9-5ers have held the higher moral grou…

Is 32 pomodoros equal to 32*25 = 800 minutes (13h 20m)?

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#52
post #19

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

I hope that you are aware that you are greatly empowering your employer by intricately interleaving your work and concept of life. If your social network, your personal support network, your community and self are tied to your work; then your employer has tremendous power over you.

You would have him subvert his motivation away the source of his contentment for something as abstract as benefiting the quality of the network of relationships?

Quite literally arguing against the individual in support of a network: hivemind. It seems like you’re forgetting you’re talking to an individual.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#53
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a needlessly adversarial take. An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation.

An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation. If someone on my team chose to work 80 hours a week because they loved what they do then I would actively discourage them, and remove them from the team if they continued. Having someone like that around has several negative impacts; - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to k…

> If someone on my team chose to work 80 hours a week because they loved what they do then I would actively discourage them, and remove them from the team if they continued.

So you don’t value this behavior - you view it as a liability to your team, for the reasons you outlined. None of what you have stated contradicts my point.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#54
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a needlessly adversarial take. An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation.

Hardly needless. Employers throw out faithful and dedicated employees all the time, even in ageist industries where it is difficult for them to find another job. I saw this happen to a close friend's father; their financial stability crumbled. He seemed to have aged 10 years overnight. It was quite a few years before I saw him not visibly depressed. Despite being a talented engineer (not in software) he never found a…

How is this relevant? Presumably the reason we’re discussing bc in this thread for working longer hours isn’t job security, but job satisfaction. I don’t see how this connects, frankly.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#55
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a needlessly adversarial take. An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation.

An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation. If someone on my team chose to work 80 hours a week because they loved what they do then I would actively discourage them, and remove them from the team if they continued. Having someone like that around has several negative impacts; - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to k…

> - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to keep up with features or testing. That leads to more staff churn.

It shouldnt do though, your team should be able to work any number of hours and still be productive because things like illness, pregnancy, deaths, holidays occur and they are not always expected or planned.

> - It's harder to have discussions about the work being done when someone is working outside of office hours, which leads to things being done as one person sees fit, or needing to be reworked often. That annoys other people on the team.

Depends on the role the person is doing, a good team will be able to cater for those who do more hours, just view that person as like two people working then you can see your team is incapable of working with two people performing a task/job.

> Other people on the team who choose not to work more than their contracted hours would be very annoyed if they saw hours as a factor in compensation, leading to more staff churn.

Seems like a rehash of point 1 and that shouldnt matter.

>- In a small business that charges for time in days, someone working 16 hours a day is essentially giving the customer work for free. If you charge for 2 days work, and tell the client you're doing 2 days work, but only work 1 day, that's dancing around the edges of potential fraud. A client could very reasonably argue that if you did the work in 1 day they should only pay for 1 day...

Then you have a contract issue which is not handling your charges properly. Flip this around, what if you got super busy and had to do 16hrs a day to complete the job more quickly to get onto another project/source of income, would you still work 8hrs because you contract charges are wrong?

> I would much rather have a good team of people working well together than have one hero doing most of the work. I sense you despise individualism which might explain why so many people go work for themselves.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#56

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

> I want to see this through to the end, one way or another.

Would you be OK if you were terminated for an unjust reason? If so, that's great. If not, that might mean you have other expectations than just working on the problem. I would reconsider my strategy in that case.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#57
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a needlessly adversarial take. An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation.

An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation. If someone on my team chose to work 80 hours a week because they loved what they do then I would actively discourage them, and remove them from the team if they continued. Having someone like that around has several negative impacts; - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to k…

> It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to keep up with features or testing. That leads to more staff churn.

It is more of resentment of lower quality of output and a lot wasted time while looking like super hard worker.

People who work 80 hours a week dont have actually higher output. They get tired , myoptic and they get all their socialization in work. That means a lot of wasted time for everyone around while acted offended on suggestion that he/she is not the most performant person around.

And yes, this was repeated observation.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#58
Is this an American thing to work super long hours?

Most people I know and work with do less than 40 and aim to be more efficient at delivering in less time.

I had a friend who worked in the states for GE and he mentioned people just had to be seen to be in the office for at least 12 hours a day even if there was nothing to do. Is this kind of culture real?

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you're posting some giant message about how much you work means it's unlikely you are truly working as many hours as you think. Use a tomato timer and hit the "Start" button every time you're truly doing work and "Stop" button when you're not. Bathroom breaks, employee chats, heating up lunches, break walks, posting on HN, etc... All that shit doesn't count. Get back to us with the #s after you've done…

I completed 32 pomodoros last week, which is above my average of ~25 for the past year and change, and a lot of my job isn't focused work, and none of that pomodoro time included any of the project management, meetings, or conversations I had with the team to figure out what we're up to, what the problems are, and what we're doing next. But that's not the point. The point is the 9-5ers have held the higher moral grou…

> The point is the 9-5ers have held the higher moral ground for years

This has nothing to do with moral high ground.

People get mentally or physically exhausted after a normal day of work. You are the exception apperantly. Since I cannot find what you actually do I'm going to count it as a very easy job with no mental of physical exercise required.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#60
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What type of work do you do?

I wear lots of hats right now; I was employee #1 so I did whatever engineering needed doing to get our platform created and functioning. Frontend, ops, backend, selecting vendors, eventually hiring, working on compliance, helping define strategy, project management... basically anything that needs technical expertise I'm leading. ...and I'm loving every minute of it. I committed to seeing this through at least until…

It seems pretty obvious that you work at a very small company with little or no layers of management, and most likely, without any other typical constraints that most workers deal with -- like fixed hours, an inconvenient office or commute, lots of unproductive meetings, limited amount of annual PTO, lack of knowledge/understanding whether anything you do has actual impact at the company, etc. Putting in 70-80 hours week after week in a scenario like that where it's very clear you're simply an employee is pretty crazy. But for a passion project, where it's just you and a few close friends/coworkers, sure, go for it. Hell, for about 3-4 months during Covid I was easily putting in 90+ hours on a project I loved working on. It's not really as heroic as you're making it out to be.
Post reply on HN