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A contrarian take on working long hours

allisonpickens.substack.com

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Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#11

Post by smackeyacky »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #6
smackeyacky wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I started working for myself, I do find periods of time where long hours are the norm. Most of the time I stick to a more regular schedule, but when I was building an MVP I put in long hours because taking a break meant having to re-learn how all the code went together. Once I had made the various breakthroughs, I backed off again. Then later, when working with our first customers I found myself working long ho…

That's fine when working for yourself, you clearly stand to gain by putting in longer hours from time to time. I recently resigned from a job where it was becoming clear the business wanted to set unrealistic deadlines and just expected devs to work extra to meet them. This company didn't offer shares or even have a bonus structure in place. It is not ok to expect your employees to work extra to meet your (frankly un…

I agree with that. Its partly why I quit a job like that myself.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#12

Post by thomasfromcdnjs »

version_five wrote: post #2

I think this is a pretty mainstream view, not sure it would be considered contrarian at this point. Not to say it means that everyone has moved on from a culture of long hours. But I'd say quality over quantity is a pretty easy sell nowadays, the harder question is how to get to quality. Long hours seem more like the thing to do when you don't know what else to do.

I was excited to read an article of someone saying that long hours is actually good aha

Still a well written and thoughtful post.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#13

Post by TameAntelope »

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep.

I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the kind of job I would be proud of, I need to work very long hours. That's 100% fine with me, but it's not always been fine with some other people I work with.

I'll even go one step further; I like working with others who share this view on working. I know not everyone can do as I do, and not everyone wants to do as I do, but when I'm working with people who can and want to work long hours, I am substantially more satisfied at my job than when I work with 9-5ers.

I don't in any way begrudge those 9-5ers, I just would rather work with people who share my ability and desire to push as far as is needed to complete the work to a high standard that is usually not possible in 40 hours a week.

It just seems like I have to constantly kowtow to the 9-5ers because they get so bent out of shape when you suggest that their style of working is only one of many totally acceptable ways of living. "Work life balance!" they shout, but not all of us have bifurcated the concepts. Work and life don't have to be these entirely severed things, I much prefer to weave them together and work with other people who can weave them together successfully.

It's frustrating. There's some sort of moral nobility in "only" working 40 hours, like I'm the problem and they're just trying to live their lives. I don't mind! I just want to work with people who value the things I do.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#14

Post by brtkdotse »

TameAntelope wrote: post #13

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

Good for you, I in no small way envy your dedication to your work (despite choosing to work 30 hour weeks myself).

Would you say the reward is commensurate for your effort?

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#15

Post by rconti »

TameAntelope wrote: post #13

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

I'm not necessarily on your side, but I expected the "contrarian" take in this blogpost to be "actually, I think long hours are great!", not "maybe long hours aren't great!"

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#16

Post by boffv5mum »

version_five wrote: post #2

I think this is a pretty mainstream view, not sure it would be considered contrarian at this point. Not to say it means that everyone has moved on from a culture of long hours. But I'd say quality over quantity is a pretty easy sell nowadays, the harder question is how to get to quality. Long hours seem more like the thing to do when you don't know what else to do.

> Long hours seem more like the thing to do when you don't know what else to do.

No that would be your mum

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#17

Post by ericmcer »

TameAntelope wrote: post #13

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

I don’t have a moral issue with it in isolation but it does “throw off the curve” in a system where we are all valued relative to our peers. A student who asks for more homework because he likes it is great, but he is going to draw a lot of ire from his peers.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#18

Post by paxys »

I went in prepared to read the "contrarian" take that working long hours can actually be good, but it is just stating the obvious.

Working for over a decade in silicon valley, I have yet to come across a company or group where the majority opinion has been that people must work more than 8 hours a day to succeed. I'm not sure if there ever was a time when overworking was a norm in the industry, but it definitely has not been the case for a while.

Heck multiple companies, including Amazon, are starting to experiment with 4 day work weeks. If you are in a position where you must justify (to yourself, management, or the public) a regular work schedule, save your energy and just quit.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#19

Post by dleslie »

TameAntelope wrote: post #13

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the ki…

I hope that you are aware that you are greatly empowering your employer by intricately interleaving your work and concept of life. If your social network, your personal support network, your community and self are tied to your work; then your employer has tremendous power over you.

Re: A contrarian take on working long hours

#20

Post by csydas »

I think that mostly I agree with the author, that there is a religious following of the long hours/never sleep work model. What has worked for me, as I am over worked and spend far too much time on meetings at all off hours, is flexible hours instead of rigid ones.

My day blends a lot more, as I have periods of work and periods of "life". Instead of a rigid 8 hour block, work is just one of those chores I do, and I align blocks of time much like I would for cleaning the bathroom, getting groceries, zoning out on a show or a run, etc.

This means a lot of breaks and no-work times, and a lot of responses and participation at times when colleaguss in other regions don't expect it. It kinda works for me :)

The impression is that I never sleep, but in reality, it's just I am distributing the work hours far differently and I can get s lot more done this way. 1.5 hours in some morning over coffee for email, scattered calls throughout the day, in the evening set aside some time after dinner and exercise for some project work (actual coding or just thinking about it). Sometimes I just merge it with other activities that don't need my full attention (is it an evening walk or a planning session if I think about a project while walking?)

I am very lucky I have this flexibility, and I know it is not a universal thing that everyone can get, but not having such a rigid structure let me really break down my day to work the way I need. I still meet all deadlines, meet all meetings, and I define when I'm not answering emails or messages. It rubs some people the wrong way as they never know when to plan meetings that involve me since they rely on outlook scheduler, and unexpected meetings tend to not happen as often (which is good for me :) ), but ultimately I like having more control over when I allocate work time

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