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Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

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271–280 of 633 posts

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#271
A piece of pseudo-intellectual drivel that fails to get to the point.

"just as we constantly debate norms of what speech is socially acceptable, we debate norms about what responses to speech are socially acceptable."

I consider the above section critical in his misunderstanding. The measuring stick by which people are cancelled, here referred to as socially acceptable norms, are in fact not norms at all by any stretch of the imagination. Meaning, these are the enforced norms of loud outrage-addicted unhinged characters forming mobs, not the common norms of the population at large.

Further, there's nothing to debate about these "crazy norms" or their disproportionate responses to non-compliance as they are uncontrollable. Learn how a mob works.

When people cannot express their feelings on political topics, with opinions commonly found acceptable by the public at large, then that is a big problem. It's incredibly dangerous and this is how you get extreme counter movements.

The heart of the matter is not the shouting at each other, that will always happen, it's real world consequences. When they go for your job or inflict life long reputation damage, that makes people anxious to express themselves.

We have to understand that this is a new problem. Before, in the physical world, if you would say something controversial, people might verbally counter you, which is business as usual and the free exchange of ideas, including bad ideas. That's quite a different experience from a pile-on by the mob, smearing you, calling your employer to get you fired, digging into everything you ever posted online to do maximum damage.

That dynamic is new and it has to be fought. It's cruel and sadistic.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should lose sight of just how batshit insane the NYT editorial was. We can continue to talk about Cancel Culture, but the opening assertion of the editorial was that we have a right to, "...speak [our] minds and voice [our] opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned." That's gobsmackingly wrong. It's the kind of sentence that, to me at least, grinds my mental gears to a halt. I just..…

Yeah that's a good point. There is not a single person complaining about cancel culture today that wouldn't immediately join the snarling mob and try to cancel someone that argued something like "we should rape 1 year olds" or something like that, for example. If we kept the arguments to "It is wrong to hate people just for holding the same opinion as 50% of the population", or "Hating someone for making a joke is wr…

I don't think "speech without social repercussions should be safe from approbation as long as it's popular speech" is a good norm either.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The opposite stance, not calling on people to end cancel culture, is also accepting a reduction in speech. I'm not sure that accepting certain spaces becoming unwelcome is the same as a reduction in speech. The quote toward the end of the article really hits the nail on the head for me: > The room felt tense... I was shaken, but also determined to not silence myself. Still, the disdain of my fellow students stuck w…

I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm a dark-skinned POC straight man that grew up in poverty (and that in the SFBA I feel like a unicorn, especially in my climbing gym where sometimes I'm the only dark-skinned POC for my entire workout). > Feeling tense and unwelcome in a space where people disagree with you is totally normal and to be expected. A huge fraction of people grow up feeling exactly like that in v…

> I certainly become uncomfortable and angry, but at the end of the day I realize it's something I cannot fundamentally change.

This is the point on which we agree. When I say

>> Feeling tense and unwelcome in a space where people disagree with you is totally normal and to be expected. A huge fraction of people grow up feeling exactly like that in virtually every space they inhabit.

I'm not excusing intolerance. I'm simply saying in my own way what I quoted from you above. One must choose: either avoid discomfort or grow some callouses.

As far as I can tell a lot of the noise around cancel culture is from folks who were climbing 5.12 in a soft gym and are now demanding the guidebook author soften the grades because they can barely huff up a 5.9. The ground shifted and they aren't willing to put in the work but feel entitled to the send.

Is the area sandbagged? Sure. Does that suck? Sure. We can commiserate for a bit. But eventually I expect that the complainer will either suck it up, leave, or write their own book. Endless complaining about not being comfortable in all circumstances eventually becomes tiresome and comes off as entitled.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#274
> All of this is to say that Americans’ perception that they can’t speak without disproportionate blowback is not unimpeachable

It's strange to argue that chilled speech should be measured by something other than people's perception of the risks of speaking freely. If people say they are afraid to speak out, then they are afraid. One could argue that the press is making too big a deal out of a particular topic, but I don't think there's a strong argument that places like the NYT are talking too much about cancel culture (conservative outlets do talk about it frequently, but polling indicates that cancel culture is perceived to be a problem by non-conservatives as well).

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#275

The comments on this thread seem to be quite wildly missing White's point. Many of the arguments taking place here seem premised on the idea that Ken White has attempted to solve, once and for all, the "cancel culture" problem --- or somehow write a dispositive argument that "cancel culture" isn't real. He's not doing any of these things. He's responding to a specific NYT staff editorial. White agrees with many of yo…

I think both you and Ken and the New York Times are getting tripped up by the phrase "free speech." What the New York Times is actually talking about is "ideological pluralism." When elderly Millennials like me were growing up, you could have--at least in educated circles--a broad range of heterodox opinions without anyone getting too upset about what you said. And that's just not true anymore. I've got in trouble wi…

Ken White doesn't think you're having a collective delusion either. See, for instance, his recent response on Twitter to the drama about unpopular speech at Occidental. So I'm not sure what you're rebutting here.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#276
post #84
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a more specific and coherent definition of cancel culture, but it's certainly not the current consensus definition: many "cancel culture" debates --- probably most of them --- are about speech or opinions that the individual stands resolutely behind. And, of course, "for offenses that are minor in comparison" or "speculative" is almost always subjective; it just shifts the debate to a different set of words, b…

> And, of course, "for offenses that are minor in comparison" or "speculative" is almost always subjective. They really aren't. I used the word "historically" for this reason. Years ago, for example, people would openly espouse directly racist views. Today, you can get fired for using a slur in the "mention" category, rather than in the "use" category. And speculative inference isn't anything more than saying, "this…

> Today, you can get fired for using a slur in the "mention" category, rather than in the "use" category.

Surely a reference to something is different than the thing itself, and quoting someone does not mean that you endorse their viewpoint.

Claiming or acting otherwise seems like it would lead to all sorts of logical contradictions.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From TFA: > Americans don’t have, and have never had, any right to be free of shaming or shunning. The First Amendment protects our right to speak free of government interference. It does not protect us from other people saying mean things in response to our speech. First, the term "free speech" is overloaded-- it means a legal right to speak free of government interference, and it also means a cultural environment o…

> We want to live in a culture where a joke on the internet doesn't lead to a struggle session at work. Everyone wants to do that, until they find themselves the target of a joke while struggling to have a good career, live in a nice place, and raise a family as a member of an unprivileged group with a lot of adverse baggage to overcome. Not everyone thinks such jokes are funny, and they have just as much a right to…

These things start out attempting to correct an injustice and then take on a life of their own. Unscrupulous people see it as a career opportunity under the pretense of moral righteousness. This is exactly what happened in the Soviet Union in 1930s. All the evils were done in the name of correcting injustice and helping the oppressed.

I'm in favor of correcting injustices, obviously. The problem is with the opportunists.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#279

The comments on this thread seem to be quite wildly missing White's point. Many of the arguments taking place here seem premised on the idea that Ken White has attempted to solve, once and for all, the "cancel culture" problem --- or somehow write a dispositive argument that "cancel culture" isn't real. He's not doing any of these things. He's responding to a specific NYT staff editorial. White agrees with many of yo…

"His point is that you have to discuss something more particular than "the right to speak your mind without fear of shame or shunning". You've never had that right" This is a bit flawed, essentially 'straw man' argument in the grand scheme. While there might be good reason to critique the NYT article, the response I think missed the bigger point. Nobody is really making the argument that speech isn't going to have co…

Steven Pinker (it's Steven, not Stephen) wrote a letter that helped obtain for Jeffrey Epstein an 18-month sentence for child sex trafficking in which his cell was kept unlocked and he was allowed to leave the prison for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, to work from his own office. My point here being: maybe Pinker isn't the example you want to call out here; maybe we can argue about somebody with perhaps fewer reasons to be "canceled". Pinker is a complicated figure; he is not, as many would have it, a perfect example of a pure academic singled out purely for his opinions on culture-war issues.

I agree with you about the potency of his credentials; lesser academics have been driven out for much smaller roles in the Epstein saga.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should lose sight of just how batshit insane the NYT editorial was. We can continue to talk about Cancel Culture, but the opening assertion of the editorial was that we have a right to, "...speak [our] minds and voice [our] opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned." That's gobsmackingly wrong. It's the kind of sentence that, to me at least, grinds my mental gears to a halt. I just..…

It's the kind of sentence that, to me at least, grinds my mental gears to a halt. This is the cortisone rush that tptacek was referring to. You need to let it go through you (or past you) until you feel your mental gears loosen up again. Then step back and look at the bigger picture. What the editorial author meant was not some kind of absolute freedom from the threat of being shamed or shunned. But that, once upon a…

> cortisone rush

This is such an outstanding term. Sometimes I’ll see a comment of someone arguing with me or insulting me and I’ll get a spike of anger and literally feel my eyes twitch for a split second and I’ve never really thought about it but that’s exactly what it is.

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