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Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

popehat.substack.com

211–220 of 633 posts

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#211

The comments on this thread seem to be quite wildly missing White's point. Many of the arguments taking place here seem premised on the idea that Ken White has attempted to solve, once and for all, the "cancel culture" problem --- or somehow write a dispositive argument that "cancel culture" isn't real. He's not doing any of these things. He's responding to a specific NYT staff editorial. White agrees with many of yo…

> That's all you really have to engage with here; you don't have to let cortisol trick you into believing this is an amassing of the forces of "cancel culture isn't real" that you must mobilize against.

At least you are clear in what you think about the average person that is concerned about this topic.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if tolerance of speech is always a net gain of speech. Communities can enter death spirals where only extreme speech exists because everyone reasonable is so turned off by the extreme speech that they leave. (Edit: I’m not saying that tolerance of speech is always a net negative either. I’m just saying it might be too complex to say.)

>Communities can enter death spirals where only extreme speech exists because everyone reasonable is so turned off by the extreme speech that they leave. This never happens in a country, people will not abandon their land and their social networks because $MEAN_PERSON said something bad about trans people. What you describe only happens in online communities or hobby clubs, and not all of them at that. In practice, f…

> This never happens in a country

I’m super confused where I ever invoked the idea of what this looks like outside of online communities. I’m sorry if I caused you to misunderstand my speech.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#213

> Our failure to have a serious discussion about defining “cancel culture” encourages this. Can we please just define it so we can move on as a society? I'm equally tired of this game where snarky writers try to pretend it doesn't exist. The first amendment doesn't protect against secret blacklists or mobs but we can still agree they are "bad things" and could agree on at least some new set of common courtesy. All so…

It doesn't have a definition and doesn't need one. It's liberally applied to all forms of "people being offended". It exists in the space between behavior that is legal yet morally unacceptable. Like abject racism. The actual quality of offending is purely subjective and always has been. Someone can be considered "cancelled" when a critical mass of people agree and refuse to support them. This is how every society has existed forever.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#214
I wonder to what extent the subject here, 'cancel culture', is a side effect of the outrage porn nature of social media (and maybe media in general), in which engagement statistics show higher engagement when it comes to inflammatory subjects/posts. Outrage porn's history goes back forever, but in the modern media context it might have been invented by Jerry Springer.

Basically the model seems to involve identifying a subject for the outrage to focus on, whipping up clicks and views by bumping the subject's statements up the social media engagement ladder - this is a lot of ad revenue, ahem - and then, finally, the ceremonial burning of the sacrificial victim for the appeasement of the flash mob. This is particularly true when the target has no political following or wealth status, certainly no means to push back (like a billionaire's PR team calling all their contacts in the media, crisis managers, social media botnets, etc.).

As far as the political-social use of this exercise, it's the kind of thing authoritarian states are known to do and was parodied by Orwell in 1984 as the "Two Minute Hate" routine. Actual debate of sensitive topics is the last thing anyone involved with this circus wants to see.

In contrast, students were once taught to argue the points of the opposition in a debate, as an exercise in thinking as well as understanding. This kind of debate training seems highly unlikely in today's world, and would probably generate lot of outrage and calls for cancellation of the program.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#215
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think White has been pretty consistent about 18 USC 1001 being chickenshit, even when it applied to Trump employees. It's important to distinguish between normative and positive arguments; whenever White talks about 18 USC 1001, he's making positive claims. If you're, for instance, talking about the All The Presidents lawyers podcast, he was there to handicap what was actually going to happen in cases against the T…

I watched that podcast and didn't see it. Given that it was a prosecution over a difference of opinion over what constitutes discussion of "sanctions" in a call they had a recording of, with only an FD-302 for evidence of what was said, where the only copy was from months after the fact. I don't know that I listened to every podcast, so you an point out a quote if there was one, but I sure don't remember anything lik…

Which podcast in particular? It ran for 3 years, and 18 USC 1001 was a recurring character.

I don't think discussing Clark is going to do any favors for your arguments.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#217

Cancel culture is just a symptom. As I see it, the Internet has created two problems: (1) Everyone now has a voice -- yeah that's cool but society isn't handling it too well yet (2) It's now easy to associate with people who think like you -- cool but absolutely terrible What happens is that now a bulk of the things you hear come from your own circle (which is self affirming!) and then when you hear something from ou…

IMO cancel culture wasn't as large as a problem until it was sanctioned by very large and influential people and institutions like the NYT.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#218
post #12
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what Popehat actually wants here. For people to stop calling it "cancel culture" whenever they face reasonable consequences for actions they take that harm others would be a good start. People not wanting to patronize or associate with you when you cause harm to people they care about is really not a bad thing, and it's not new either, and yet it is what gets called "cancel culture" by a lot of people.…

> reasonable consequences for actions they take that harm others This is what is at issue. What does "reasonable consequences" mean for "harm to others"? Sometimes the harm to others is disputed, as the harm is almost always considered emotional. Sometimes what is considered "reasonable consequences" is something as significant as loss of livelihood.

To me "consequences" are sought when someone wants to alleviate their own burden or guilt over the situation. Rarely is "restitution" sought. It seems to me that the latter would be a far more useful trend if we're going to continue trying to deal with social problems using the awesome power of the internet.

Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#219
post #96

That's a lot of words to say "people are free to steer clear of people they don't like and always have been". And not much of thought into "what changed that now it is a problem perceived by some?" There has been a fundamental change to our reality over the past couple decades: things you say and do are now by default in public and permanent record. If your not-too-famous grandpa said something outrageous, he ruined…

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Re: Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times

#220
Do we need more time and space in our society for measured discussion about current events? Absolutely, but such discussion is anathema to engagement-algorithm-driven social/traditional media. If you take the time to think things through, then by the time you are ready to speak the world will have already moved along and the post you are replying to is as good as dead. Instead we reward only the hottest, most emotion-provoking takes and clap-backs. Those exchanges do nothing to foster mutual understanding, but they sure do get the views and rake in that sweet ad money, which helps meet growth projections.

We're free to blame Democrats or Republicans or Russians or whoever, but 'cancel culture' is a natural response to a system that viralizes outrage. Completely banning the speech on the specific topic that causes the outrage will always be a losing battle because the system will always find some new dumbness to amplify. If you really want change then you gotta change the system, dude.

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