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Ask HN: Who operates at scale without containers?

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Re: Ask HN: Who operates at scale without containers?

#21
post #16
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The commercial, licensed software I've dealt with in the past year has all been containerized.

I agree. I've seen containerization mentioned by many vendors in the last year. It adds another layer of questions to vet like "do they possibly know what they're doing?"

Do you see shipping in containers as a sign that they do know what they're doing, or as a sign that they don't?

Re: Ask HN: Who operates at scale without containers?

#22
post #6
post #2

I've been at a company where they weren't (yet) using containers nor K8S. The build process would just create VM images with the required binaries in there and then deploy that to an autoscaling group. It worked well and if you only ever intend to run a single service per machine then is the right solution.

At my workplace we use Docker to run services, but there is no container orchestration like Kubernetes. An AMI bakes in some provisioning logic and the container image. Autoscaling does the rest. Even without orchestration, I argue containers are useful. They abstract the operating system from the application and allow you to manage each independently. Much more easily than you'd be able to otherwise, anyway. Plus yo…

I'm in this spot too. It's looks increasingly likely that an orchestration layer is in our near future. But we've got pretty far with this approach.

Re: Ask HN: Who operates at scale without containers?

#26
Back in 2010 I built and operated MySpace' analytics system on 14 EC2 instances. Handled 30 billion writes per day. Later I was involved in ESPN's streaming service which handled several million concurrent connections with VMs but no containers. More recently I ran an Alexa top 2k website (45 million visitors per month) off of a single container-free EC2 insurance. Then I spent two years working for a streaming company that used k8s + containers and would fall over of it had more than about 60 concurrent connections per EC2 instance. K8s + docker is much heavier than advertised.

Re: Ask HN: Who operates at scale without containers?

#27
post #6
post #2

I've been at a company where they weren't (yet) using containers nor K8S. The build process would just create VM images with the required binaries in there and then deploy that to an autoscaling group. It worked well and if you only ever intend to run a single service per machine then is the right solution.

At my workplace we use Docker to run services, but there is no container orchestration like Kubernetes. An AMI bakes in some provisioning logic and the container image. Autoscaling does the rest. Even without orchestration, I argue containers are useful. They abstract the operating system from the application and allow you to manage each independently. Much more easily than you'd be able to otherwise, anyway. Plus yo…

I tend to use Docker heavily as basically just a cross-distro, isolated package and process manager that also presents config in a reasonably consistent manner. It's wildly better than dealing with "native" distro packages, unless you are all in on doing everything The Correct Way on a particular distro and have tooling in place to make that not suck. That it happens to use containers barely matters to me.

Re: Ask HN: Who operates at scale without containers?

#28
Grooveshark didn't use any of that. We were very careful about avoiding dependencies where possible and keeping our backend code clean and performant. We supported about 45M MAU at our biggest, with only a handful of physical servers. I'm not aware of any blog posts we made detailing any of this, though. And if you're not familiar with the saga, Grooveshark went under for legal, not technical reasons. The backend API was powered by nginx, PHP, MySQL, memcache, with a realtime messaging server built in Go. We used Redis and Mongodb for some niche things, had serious issues with both which is understandable because they were both immature at the time, but Mongodb's data loss problems were bad enough that I would still not use them today.

That said, I'm using Docker for my current side project. Even if it never runs at scale, I just don't want to have to muck around with system administration, not to mention how nice it is to have dev and prod be identical.

Re: Ask HN: Who operates at scale without containers?

#29
I don't know that I'd say "web scale", in part because I still don't think I know exactly what that means, but I used to work at a place that handled a lot of data, in a distributed manner, in an environment where reliability was critical, without containers.

The gist of their approach was radical uniformity. For the most part, all VMs ran identical images. Developers didn't get to pick dependencies willy-nilly; we had to coordinate closely with ops. (Tangentially, at subsequent employers I've been amazed to see how just a few hours of developers handling things for themselves can save many minutes of talking to ops.) All services and applications were developed and packaged to be xcopy deployable, and they all had to obey some company standards on how their CLI worked, what signals they would respond to and how, stuff like that. That standard interface allowed it all to be orchestrated with a surprisingly small volume - in terms of SLOC, not capability - of homegrown devops infrastructure.

Re: Ask HN: Who operates at scale without containers?

#30
post #2

I've been at a company where they weren't (yet) using containers nor K8S. The build process would just create VM images with the required binaries in there and then deploy that to an autoscaling group. It worked well and if you only ever intend to run a single service per machine then is the right solution.

I’m in the process of moving to exactly this approach. I’ve been trying to pick the right Linux distro to base my images on. Ubuntu Server is the low effort route but a bit big to redeploy constantly. I’ve also been looking at the possibility of using Alpine Linux which feels like a better fit but a bit more tweaking needed for compatibility across cloud providers. Unikernels are also interesting but I think that mig…

Ubuntu is too heavy. Try CentOS.
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