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Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

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Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#91

Post by ravi-delia »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #76

Anyone know of any unexpected consequences of using this for IVF? It seems to me that we are falling into brave-new-world territory without really trying. I'm sure parents will do this to help their kids but I wonder what the negative issues will be? Gender selection is one but that's already being done by other means. What will this particular technology bring?

Check out Gwern's analysis(https://www.gwern.net/Embryo-selection) of this kind of technology. It suggests a somewhat noticeable effect, but not a particularly large or worthwhile one. That doesn't factor in new technology, but the methodology is all there so it shouldn't be too hard to plug in the new values. I haven't done that yet, but I'd be surprised if there was a big shift.

Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#92

Post by ravi-delia »

TOMDM wrote: post #61
topynate wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won't matter for highly polygenic traits. For monogenetic disorders like Tay-Sachs, it will provide another line of defence along with conventional pre-implantation screening and pre-natal screening.

I think what people are worried about is that parents may neglect to take measures they otherwise would based on overconfidence in genetic screening.

Out of curiosity, what other measures might they neglect to take? I feel like I was sort of under the impression that the alternative is going in blind, but in retrospect I guess that's a somewhat silly assumption. Still, how likely is it that better genetic screening would have a net negative effect?

Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#93

Post by Flatcircle »

legalcorrection wrote: post #10

Thinking about the social and political implications of this in the long run. Any society or segment of any society that isn't producing average 120 IQ babies with superior sensory perception, physical strength, dexterity, and so forth, is going to turn itself into a permanent human underclass. Eugenics is here to stay this time.

IQ is overrated. If IQ mattered as much as people think, then all the jeopardy champions would be millionaires. Some of the dumbest people are willing to go up to strangers and ask them to buy something they don't need. Intelligence can get in the way more than people think. Just gotta be above the disability level. Your emotional, energetic, environmental, and cultural traits will do the rest.

Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#94

Post by postalrat »

legalcorrection wrote: post #10

Thinking about the social and political implications of this in the long run. Any society or segment of any society that isn't producing average 120 IQ babies with superior sensory perception, physical strength, dexterity, and so forth, is going to turn itself into a permanent human underclass. Eugenics is here to stay this time.

Seems more efficient to clone 200 or so super geniuses and stick them in a lab.

Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#95

Post by legalcorrection »

Flatcircle wrote: post #93
legalcorrection wrote: post #10

Thinking about the social and political implications of this in the long run. Any society or segment of any society that isn't producing average 120 IQ babies with superior sensory perception, physical strength, dexterity, and so forth, is going to turn itself into a permanent human underclass. Eugenics is here to stay this time.

IQ is overrated. If IQ mattered as much as people think, then all the jeopardy champions would be millionaires. Some of the dumbest people are willing to go up to strangers and ask them to buy something they don't need. Intelligence can get in the way more than people think. Just gotta be above the disability level. Your emotional, energetic, environmental, and cultural traits will do the rest.

Yes, I agree. You should substitute a mix of cognitive attributes for my original post's simplistic focus on IQ.

Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#96

Post by krageon »

legalcorrection wrote: post #10

Thinking about the social and political implications of this in the long run. Any society or segment of any society that isn't producing average 120 IQ babies with superior sensory perception, physical strength, dexterity, and so forth, is going to turn itself into a permanent human underclass. Eugenics is here to stay this time.

If anything, it is liberating that this can (potentially) be achieved using editing instead of partner selection and stimulating child birth among "desirable" couples. Using editing, such things should be within reach for everyone. What's not to love?

Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#97

Post by krageon »

belval wrote: post #17

I see a lot of comments underscoring the possible eugenics implication of this, but I am curious as to why everyone always paints it as a negative? Even in our very diversity-conscious institutions we can generally agree that some things are plain bad. You don't want a blind or deaf child. You don't want one with down syndrome or deformities that would just make their life difficult. I wonder if the high level of opp…

> I am curious as to why everyone always paints it as a negative

Fear of the unknown and distrust of everyone else. This might give someone an advantage, so it must be bad for me. I view it kind of like metaphorical crabs trying to climb out of a bucket.

Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#98

Post by krageon »

bpodgursky wrote: post #58
taylorius wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>an insufferable hell beyond comprehension >That would be, like... a typical office full of programmers Well, quite... ;-)

Spend a week in a workplace with an average IQ of 80 and get back to me about which feels worse.

The workplace that feels worse will be the one with an average IQ that is furthest from your IQ :)

Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#99

Post by krageon »

riskQtempAcc wrote: post #53
belval wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A society of 120 IQ adults would probably be an insufferable hell beyond comprehension, considering the track record of intellectual movements and the proclivity of smart individuals, probably like yourself, to vastly overestimate the merits of rationality and concepts that can be limited to the mind of one human. Disregarding the personal attack (I am well aware of downsides, but it's called having a discussion),…

(Use of the pronoun “you” as the impersonal) You’re not curing cystic fibrosis, or any other genetic disease, are you? You’re just stopping disabled people from being born because you’ve decided their lives have no intrinsic value. This can be said to a wide swath of people. Down syndrome people, bipolar people, blue people, people with physical deformities. Why do you get to choose? Have you ever asked one of these…

> Why do you get to choose

Presumably this "you" is the parent. They get to decide when (or if) they have kids and they can now decide what kind of kids they have. Just like folks can (and should) already screen for certain heritable disabilities.

> Have you ever asked one of these people if they find their lives to be meaningless?

They'll either be depressed or they won't feel this way. By definition, the ones that are well-functioning parts of society won't feel this way. I don't see why it should matter.

> I can think of few hells more dull than a world of smart ass public radio listeners providing unrequested comments lathered in snark and cynicism.

For someone who finds that dull, there is a lot of snark and cynicism in this comment. It's really not necessary, we're all here to engage with each others' view points.

Re: Scientists say they can read nearly the whole genome of an IVF-created embryo

#100

Post by krageon »

whatshisface wrote: post #68
mywittyname wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those kids would still potentially breed the normal way. If a rich kid knocks up a bunch of poor ones, those children will have similar genetic advantages. And rich people fall from grace all the time. It's difficult for families to hold onto their wealth over successive generations. One of the keys to maintaining wealth is to keep it from being diluted, which means that some kids are going to get cut off.

> If a rich kid knocks up a bunch of poor ones, those children will have similar genetic advantages. This doesn't set off your dystopia alarm?

Why? It's a dystopia if someone fathers a lot of children? It's dystopian when those children have heritable (but "artificial") genetic advantages?
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