Windows needs a change in priorities • Hacker News Board

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#771

Post by TheKarateKid » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 6:52 PM UTC

khaledh wrote: post #98

interstice wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that the people who used the bar on the side and the people who turned the user metrics off are the same people (myself included). But I’m not sure how I feel about the results. In any case I hope shells like litestep make a comeback as a result of ever more hostile ui decisions, either that or everyone jumps ship entirely to put energy into making something else great.

The problem is that Windows with all its warts now is still far ahead of the competition in that department (desktop GUI). Whether that's due to monopoly or being actually better, it doesn't matter. The fact is competition is almost non-existent.

> The problem is that Windows with all its warts now is still far ahead of the competition in that department (desktop GUI)

Same with Windows Explorer. Finder in macOS is still terribly crippled compared to it:

-It can't even perform folder merges in many cases, only allowing you to "Replace" the entire folder.

-You can't pause/resume file transfers.

-Cancelling large transfers is like canceling a print job in the 00's - it might cancel, but if it does it will be when 95% of the job is done anyway and you're screwed.

-You aren't shown metadata of any files you are prompted about.

-Batch management of file conflicts/actions not possible.

Most of these features were added to Explorer all the way back in Vista 15 years ago.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#772

Post by arendtio » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

> I mean, I can literally run a game written for Windows 95 on Windows 11 without major issues (no, I am not going to open the SafeDisc can of worms this time). I can’t do that on macOS or Linux boxes reliably, and yet Windows is doing a-OK with this task.

While I get the point, that is not as true as it sounds. E.g. AFAIK running Tomb Raider 2 is easier on Linux via Proton/Wine than it is on Windows.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#773

Post by segmondy » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

segphault wrote: post #22

Like every Windows user, I have had a lot of frustrating experiences with the abusive behavior and dark patterns that have taken over the platform. Like when they started having Skype silently run in the background logged in with the user's Microsoft account without any notice or human intervention, and removed the setting to disable it from launching at startup so that it couldn't be prevented. I had to completely u…

As the techie helping my folks with their Windows issue, it was far easier and better for my mental health to spend my own money buying everyone chromebooks and ipads.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#774

Post by edgyquant » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #629

segphault wrote: post #22

Like every Windows user, I have had a lot of frustrating experiences with the abusive behavior and dark patterns that have taken over the platform. Like when they started having Skype silently run in the background logged in with the user's Microsoft account without any notice or human intervention, and removed the setting to disable it from launching at startup so that it couldn't be prevented. I had to completely u…

Windows and macOS users have different expectations. On a Mac, I expect my login account to also know my Apple ID and connect seamlessly with my iCloud, Apple TV, Apple Music, Messages, and all other Apple cloud services. I like being able to answer phone calls on the computer when the phone is nearby. When Microsoft tries to make Windows more Mac-like, it faces a couple problems - not everyone wants to be on Skype o…

Yeah I expect that my MacBook, Mac Mini, IPad and IPhone are all connected. I can open up browser tabs from one device to the other, take phone calls or send texts, not have to worry about sharing passwords etc.

I expect, want in fact, none of these things on my Windows PC. I do not trust Microsoft with my data, and this was before the last year of them being owned. It may not be right or even logical, but I imagine a ton of other users fit this same archetype. To me windows is the spyware ridden OS I use to pay a handful of games, and it basically always will be.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#775

Post by sharno » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

iforgotpassword wrote: post #767

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try Manjaro with KDE. Manjaro is way better than Ubuntu; KDE is way better than Xfce.

Try debian with i3. Debian is way better than Manjaro; i3 is way better than KDE.

Try Pop!_OS with Gnome.

Pop!_OS is way better than Debian; Gnome is way better than i3.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#776

Post by jaclaz » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:07 PM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #726

jaclaz wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there was a shift. The Win9x/ME (please read as DOS based) series of OS was intended for home users. The NT/2K was intended for business users. Only as an example most games at the time would not have run on NT/2K, and Win9x/Me was essentially single-user only. For some reasons with XP the good MS guys decided to force down the throat of pro/business users (that were very, very, very happy about Windows 2000) the…

> that were very, very happy about Windows 98, not so much about ME [0] I disagree somewhat. The 9x family didn't handle multitasking well and had driver issues, frequently leading to lock-ups and BSODs. The architecture didn't handle isolation well, but NT did. Windows NT mostly stayed out of people's way in XP unless they looked for those menus. It was a huge problem for Vista, though.

Well, you have to put it in context, home users at the time could have:

1) free (in the sense of included in the price or their new PC) a somewhat unstable OS with lower requisites (particularly about RAM) where most software somehow ran (including games)

or:

2) a more stable, paid (costing if I recall correctly more than the equivalent of 2-300 US$ of today) OS needing double the RAM (think of 128 vs. 64 MB), definitely slower, where they could not run many games

for some reasons many chose #1, and BSOD's (on the 9x/Me) were so common that it was perceived by many (that had not any occasion to experience the stability of NT and of 2000) as a "normal state of things".

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#777

Post by edgyquant » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:08 PM UTC

q-big wrote: post #634

rbanffy wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows and macOS users have different expectations. On a Mac, I expect my login account to also know my Apple ID and connect seamlessly with my iCloud, Apple TV, Apple Music, Messages, and all other Apple cloud services. I like being able to answer phone calls on the computer when the phone is nearby. When Microsoft tries to make Windows more Mac-like, it faces a couple problems - not everyone wants to be on Skype o…

> When Microsoft tries to make Windows more Mac-like Just a consideration: Aren't nearly all users who love the Apple/Mac experience already in the Apple ecosystem? In other words: Should Microsoft not rather assume that making Windows more Mac-like might be a bad idea considering their core customers?

It depends on the direction Windows itself wants to go in really. This isn’t the early 2000s where Windows was the used OS everywhere and was some hyperpower among software. Most apps are cross platform and there is a healthy ecosystem of OSs. Microsoft can let itself be the gaming and office PC, it can attempt to remain being the jack of all trades and master of none, or it could plot its own new course. I think either way they’ll have plenty of costumers.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#778

Post by bombcar » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:13 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #728

bombcar wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows 95 is under-appreciated in the GUI histories I feel - it had many things that became 'standard' pretty much immediately afterwards (I even have a shortcut to Applications in my Dock which mimics a Start Menu). But it's hard for a company to justify "paying to leave shit alone" so even if a maximum was reached, it will recede.

I agree. There's a lot of people paid to re-design Windows every year, they all use Macs, and none of them are doing any user studies at all.

I suspect user studies are being done - and coincidentally confirming whatever it is management wants to do.

Or they focus on new users and not on the amount of things people have already learned.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#779

Post by yibg » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

segphault wrote: post #22

Like every Windows user, I have had a lot of frustrating experiences with the abusive behavior and dark patterns that have taken over the platform. Like when they started having Skype silently run in the background logged in with the user's Microsoft account without any notice or human intervention, and removed the setting to disable it from launching at startup so that it couldn't be prevented. I had to completely u…

Is it nobody cares or they care about different things? If you want to be cynical, they care about making money. But could it also be that they're more focused on the general population (who don't care as much about this stuff)?

It's hard to tell for me to be honest, but are we (e.g. HN crowd) just a minority of power users that are in our own echo chamber complaining and making us happy doesn't really move the needle for MSFT?

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#780

Post by Silhouette » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #644

Silhouette wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you understand that the potential fines for violations under some of the recent laws (notably the GDPR) have a few extra zeroes on that? The limiting factor at the moment seems to be a lack of resources for the regulators that are responsible for enforcing privacy rules. Obviously a big tech firm facing a fine that could run to hundreds of millions is like to exhaust their legal avenues for challenging it before h…

> Do you understand that the potential fines for violations under some of the recent laws (notably the GDPR) have a few extra zeroes on that? That's been the case for 4 years now, none of these fines have occurred. The total amount of fines across all companies over those 4 years is barely above 1Bn. > The limiting factor at the moment seems to be a lack of resources for the regulators that are responsible for enforc…

That's been the case for 4 years now, none of these fines have occurred.

The largest fines so far have been approaching 9 figures, far more than the "couple of million" in the comment I replied to above.

That's not pocket change even for a multinational and of course there has to be reasonable due process before handing out that kind of penalty. If anything I'd say the fact that several eight-figure penalties have already been handed down is reassuring.

I have the feeling that nobody actually wants to enforce this

I'm genuinely curious about how you formed that impression. Here in the UK our data protection regulators have been fairly consistent in their public views on these issues under multiple Information Commissioners now and have handed down some significant penalties, so I don't really buy the conspiracy theories about corruption and so on.

Worse: in the UK, there's been news about actually weakening the GDPR, based on the Culture Secretary being stupid (or having financial incentives for doing so) and actually believing the tech industry's vilification of the GDPR.

As someone who is both a strong proponent of privacy safeguards and involved in running businesses that actually have to comply with the GDPR, I have very mixed feelings about this.

On one hand I don't like the idea of weakening important privacy protections and I have no faith whatsoever in the competence of the current government here to understand the technical or social implications of these policies.

On the other hand I also don't think much of the GDPR as written. It's full of ambiguity and it is unnecessarily difficult for a good actor to comply with it, particularly smaller organisations that don't have dedicated staff to deal with this kind of admin and also don't have any interest in doing things with personal data that most of us here probably wouldn't like. People like to focus on a tiny number of points that we'd probably agree are positive steps or at least well-intentioned, but the GDPR is roughly a hundred pages long and that's before you include supporting materials like official guidance on interpretation from all the different regulators. There are a lot of small and a few big problems in the rest of those pages once you look past the headlines. Not coincidentally those areas also tend to leave loopholes that some bad actors are relying on to escape the trap.