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3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

stopgas.org

181–190 of 240 posts

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#181
post #3

Ok, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)

What you are saying is you prefer dead ukranians to be slightly uncomfortable in Germany.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#182

This has come up many times by now. But the supposed transition to renewable energy in Germany was merely a substitution of natural gas for nuclear power. What bothers me greatly is that Germany still has not come to turns with the fact that they need nuclear power. That is a long and costly investment to make and you need to start right away. LNG can only get you so far and renewable sources just can't provide the e…

Well, fossil fuels are renewable on long enough timescales. Germans are just betting on the long game ;)

IMHO, Germans are betting on not getting bashed by the workers unions only. When the whole anti-nuclear frenzy from the 90s came in.. coal workers seized the opportunity.. and they couldn’t get rid of them until the EU pressure was too much .. so they turned to the next cheapest option.. which at the time was gas… and until the EU realizes gas is also not green.. gas is the new coal.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#183
post #30
post #18

I don't know what the contract looks like; doesn't Germany have a legal obligation to pay Russia even if it were to stop LNG imports?

>legal obligation something tells me that Germany doesn't care about that right now.

Well yes, they simply can't cut the Gas.

I don't know where people get the illusion from that you could "just get it from somewhere else" in matter of days/weeks. That's simply not the case at all. Even if we speaking about month and accepting Gas prices doubling or more it close to impossible.

But the EU can't accept Gas prices exploding to that degree.

While this article loves to blame Germany they kinda forget that part of this Gas is resold in to neighboring countries.

Also in all of Germany (through slightly more so in east Germany) most houses heat with Gas, warm Water with Gas and especially on cheaper (longer not renovated) apartments also have a Gas oven and Stove. Until ~20 or so years ago central gas heating + gas stoves where the most common way to build apartment houses, in recent years its central gas heating + electronic stoves/ovens.

Due to disagreements with Russia in recent years gas imports also have been limit to long term contracts, hence there are no (in this context relevant) gas reserves.

Also while people love to say Germany is unnecessary switching of atomar power plants the truth is what they did wasn't building new ones. All the still running power plants are already operating well beyond the time they where build for. With the Ukraine conflict Germany "suspended" the shutdown of them, but they still need to shut down. Germany has space wise not much space. It can't afford a single reactor failure at all (like Germany might literally collapse if there is a reactor meltdown with some of the more central power plants).

When the conflict started Germany did fast line some projects to become more/faster able to switch off or massive reduce Russian gas (like started building LNG ship terminals). But all of this takes time. Luckily spring is coming so it might be possible.

But if you now would stop Gas you would practically derive millions of EU citizens of an affordable way to cook, heat and wash. And with affordable I don't mean cheap, but like affordable at all.

With existing instabilities from COVID and a word wide re-emergence of facism you can guess twice if the EU would to so. Their main priority is to protect their citizens and constitution/democracy. Switching of Russian Gas now (like in a week) would likely fail both.

So it's not an option at all, at least not _yet_.

If their would be a doable way to switch of Russian Gas it would have been done. Similar if Russia could no longer send Gas they also would have done so to create massive internal instabilities in the EU.

So the Gas sells are currently something neither party (Germany/Russia) likes but neither can stop either.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#184

This has come up many times by now. But the supposed transition to renewable energy in Germany was merely a substitution of natural gas for nuclear power. What bothers me greatly is that Germany still has not come to turns with the fact that they need nuclear power. That is a long and costly investment to make and you need to start right away. LNG can only get you so far and renewable sources just can't provide the e…

Germany does not need nuclear power. This is far too expensive and dangerous. The future is renewable.

They shut down two reactors, and are currently reliant on other countries nuclear generated power. As long as they get to say _they're_ not the ones producing it, it's okay?

I'm all for renewable energy, but this is hypocritic nonsense fuelled by emotional decision making, and not helpful towards that goal.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#185
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are suggesting here is equivalent to blowing up a bridge and then suggesting that there are other ways to cross a river. Yes, there are other oil and gas suppliers. No, Germany and the EU cannot just suddenly switch. Fools for relying on Russian energy in the first place.

“Fools for relying on Russian energy in the first place.” This is a tough one. Yes, but at same time there was and still is a long term benefit to normalizing Russia’s identity as a “Western” power. That’s a long haul project and Germany/EU wasn’t wrong to engage economically with them, mutually, to that end. Given the history of Germany/Russia in particular, this mutual dependence is arguably working exactly as it w…

>This is a tough one. Yes, but at same time there was and still is a long term benefit to normalizing Russia’s identity as a “Western” power. That’s a long haul project and Germany/EU wasn’t wrong to engage economically with them, mutually, to that end.

Engaging economically is one thing, dependence on Russian energy is another. It was absolutely insane post-2014 to have an energy strategy with such a profound dependency on Russia. One US President warned Europe and Germany of such a dependence, and they quite literally laughed at him to his face.

At minimum Germany and the EU could have taken measures to ensure optionality in the event that Russia did as Russia has historically done.

>Given the history of Germany/Russia in particular, this mutual dependence is arguably working exactly as it was intended - cooling impulses.

It does not appear (to me) that Russia has cooled their impulses at all.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#186
@dang can you please explain why I am getting flagged for sharing my opinions on the issue happening right now?

Can someone go through my opinions and prove me that I am a troll? My opinions are mine, based on what I have read and experienced in this life. I know my opinions are not popular, but it doesn't make them invalid. This is happening again and again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30756420

https://imgur.com/a/DlieDOo

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#187

@dang can you please explain why I am getting flagged for sharing my opinions on the issue happening right now? Can someone go through my opinions and prove me that I am a troll? My opinions are mine, based on what I have read and experienced in this life. I know my opinions are not popular, but it doesn't make them invalid. This is happening again and again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30756420 https://imgu…

No post body was provided.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#188
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage, transmission lines, and over provisioning are also alternatives. Still blows my mind that Germany and other countries are closing nuclear facilities though.

Angela Merkal called this a destruction of national property, and they (CDU) extended life of plants 8-14 years. There were 17 plants at the time. Total production that has been shutdown (baseload power) is around 19,689MW now post fukushima. They've been able to replace maybe 4MW's with solar at this point? It's kind of mind boggling how much was shut down - the problem this has caused for electrification in germany…

it was 21cts/kwH last year (but sold 18cts to EDF own competitors, the liberalizations laws in europe make no sense) so i guess less than half that price.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#189
post #3

Ok, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)

What you are saying is you prefer dead ukranians to be slightly uncomfortable in Germany.

You know that 90+% of heating in Berlin is Gas based, probably 50%+ of stoves and ovens are gas based. More warm water is also gas based.

Numbers are similar for many parts of eastern Germany.

For western Germany the a slightly less, but still very high.

Gas Germany imports is also re-exported to other countries.

Some financially much worse off.

You are literally asking Germany to derive a non-small amount of their financially weaker of people of heating, cooking and warm water. And this would not just affect Germany but other EU countries too, destabilizing all of the EU.

At the same time it doesn't necessary stop the war, and might even escalate it even.

Also many of the alternative sources we could buy gas from don't have the infrastructure to ship it to us fast enough (yet).

Worse some of the alternative sources are states like Qatar, which are from a democratic, ethical and cultural point of view worse then Russia, they are just spacial further away...

The main objective of the EU is to protect it's citizens and implicitly secondarily democracy. Switching of Russian gas _now_ would fail both. Leading to internally instability we can't afford which would be a perfect presence for the word wide re-emerging fascism.

Now that's how it's now, a lot of thinks are already underway to change this.

But changes take time.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#190

This has come up many times by now. But the supposed transition to renewable energy in Germany was merely a substitution of natural gas for nuclear power. What bothers me greatly is that Germany still has not come to turns with the fact that they need nuclear power. That is a long and costly investment to make and you need to start right away. LNG can only get you so far and renewable sources just can't provide the e…

> and renewable sources just can't provide the energy needed, as should be clear by now (although it was widely understood for the past 30 years at least). Renewable energy cost has fallen _a lot_, and Germany doesn't need nuclear power, IF it worked towards this goal: https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/de/documents/p...

The cost of renewables has fallen, but the cost of grid scale energy storage is still quite high. When the cost of the entire energy grid is viewed holistically (including required storage if using renewables) the cost of nuclear is competitive with renewables.

Unless people are suddenly ok with blackouts, energy grid have to be robust. For renewables, that means having enough stores energy for times of decreased production.

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