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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#891

Post by clusterhacks »

Sparyjerry wrote: post #445
gjvc wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. You are correct -- this is an awful notion. Plumbers, HVAC technicians, electricians, bricklayers, joiners, framers, builders, are the people who build and maintain the real world, and we need to raise the status of these (and others, forgive me for not listing them all) professions, which take just as long if not longer in which to get qualified,…

Saying we need to pay them more doesn't change the laws of supply and demand. Besides, as of right now none of the careers you mentioned pay poorly, they are in very high demand and most live very comfortable lives. Are they getting Google software engineer type salaries? No, unless they branch off and start their own business. You can't just say "these people deserve more" because it's just not true. If the path to…

I am often curious about the actual salary numbers for the trades versus STEM and often see comments around trade positions being high demand and "none . . pay poorly."

I googled around a bit to grab some numbers. I think the below supports the idea that the trades mentioned by GP have median earning numbers very close to the median earning numbers for a full time worker in the United States, maybe a touch less if we grouped all the trades together.

The demand question is less clear to me. The BLS source implies less demand (measured by job growth) in general for the trades than the "average" demand growth for jobs in the US.

The U.S. Census Bureau lists the annual real median earnings at $41,535 in 2020 for all workers with earnings[4] and lists the annual median earnings at $56,287 in 2020 for people who worked full-time, year round. [1]

  Plumber - median $56,330, demand growth, slower than average [2]
  HVAC tech - median $50,590, demand growth, slower than average [3]
  Electrician - median $56,900, demand growth average (actually 9%) [4]
  Framer(Carpenter) - median $49,520, demand growth, slower than average [5]
  Bricklayer(Mason) - median $47,710, declining demand. [6]
  Software engineer - median $110,140, demand growth, higher than average [7]
The same source of data projects the average job growth to be 8%, so "slower than average" and "higher than average" are in relation to that number.

It gets interesting trying to generally compare demand for STEM to the trades. The BLS estimates about 84,700 openings for electricians per year for the next decade. Contrast that to, for example, chemists - the BLS estimate there is 9,100 positions per year. I didn't find a really great source for the number of BS degrees awarded per year to Chemistry majors, but numbers seemed to be between 14,000 and 17,000 per year.

When I think about supply and demand in careers, it seems to me that STEM is weird. People say "STEM is harder and just worth more in the end" but there seems to me, based on the numbers, for there to be a large "winners take all" effect. But it's hard to measure how many BS in Chemistry holders go to medical school, law school, or take project managment jobs versus being baristas in your local coffee shop. I did find one source that implied the highest percentage of graduates with "Physical Science" degrees (which includes chemistry graduates) at 8.5% work in post-secondary education.

One thing I know for sure - my organization (academic medical research) often hires post-docs that start at a little less than the US median earnings for full-time workers. And there seems to be a lot of competition for those post-doc roles. Salaries do go up over time.

  [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States
  [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-pipefitters-and-steamfitters.htm
  [3] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/installation-maintenance-and-repair/heating-air-conditioning-and-refrigeration-mechanics-and-installers.htm
  [4] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/electricians.htm
  [5] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/carpenters.htm
  [6] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/brickmasons-blockmasons-and-stonemasons.htm
  [7] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#892

Post by pcmoney »

stale2002 wrote: post #464
phkahler wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. I was going to write one but then decided I'm not qualified to speak for farmers. I will say this. Both my grandfathers were farmers. One worked his whole life and died broke. The other invested what he could, and never worked the land a day in my life (that I can remember). He once said that he didnt make his money farming, meaning it was from saving and investing. He rented his land, barn, and equipmen…

Thats doesn't mean we need more farmers. Yes, feel free to say that farmers are payed low. But it remains the same that if they are paid this low, then we don't really need more farmers entering the industry. Instead hopefully less people will join that industry.

It would be wise to ensure that we have some redundancy in the farming sector. Even if it needs go be subsidized. It is arguably a national security concern.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#893

Post by mercutio2 »

Ekaros wrote: post #129
gruez wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the SAT's a way of laundering discrepancies in generational wealth, which is indeed due to racist public policy as well as racist private actions. it may be intended not that way, but that's how it functions. But what are SATs being replaced with? "holistic admissions"? A poor kid can prepare for the SAT by studying his ass off, with mostly free/cheap materials from the internet. How can you do the same with "extrac…

From my viewpoint in Europe I never understood the whole extracurricular, hobby or even the essay or recommendation letter part of admission process. All of those felt like nothing to do with actual capability to study. If SAT is a bad idea, replace it with field specific national entrance exam. Other fun alternatives, just outright auction off certain number of admission slots. Or just award slots randomly to all ap…

The United States does not use the European system of forcing kids to choose an area of study when they apply. Kids can, and do, study whatever they want, and change their majors at will.

So a field specific exam doesn’t really work.

And, besides that, would be opposed by the exact same people opposing the SAT.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#894

Post by boppo1 »

selimthegrim wrote: post #336
Tretiotrr wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only need to Google for it. https://www.mygermanuniversity.com/universities You are a little bit limited by what you like to study if you don't speak German as not every university offers a bachelor in English but it's doable.

I think an American HS diploma doesn't qualify you for admission unless you do well on the SAT or ACT.

I've got a bachelors and I did excellent on my ACT... 14 years ago.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#895

Post by ModernMech »

bradleyjg wrote: post #521
ModernMech wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sort of true but also at the same time I rely on a lot of staff to make my job a lot easier. Yes we could cut down on those administrators but it would mean that professors have to do more, taking away from research agendas. Universities have been optimized to make doing researcher easier and I appreciate that. I'd have to pay a lot more attention to my students' personal lives if we didn't have a dean of stu…

but by and large the University I work at gets the job done. Day in and day out for 10s of thousands of students. The students get their piece of paper that employers use as a free-to-them proxy for intelligence and diligence. I won’t cry at all when this exploitative business model is disrupted and lots of administrators have to find honest work.

I mean, you call it a scam and exploitative, but our customers are very happy with our service. They give us repeat business by sending their kids and grandkids to us. Our brand becomes a part of their identity moreso than Apple could ever dream. They wear our logo on their clothes and they even tattoo it on their bodies. When we call our customers up every year and ask for donations, they open their checkbooks and give us money for nothing at all in return. If our business were so exploitative, why are our customers so enthusiastic about our product?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#896

Post by bcrosby95 »

lr4444lr wrote: post #791
davemp wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home improvement is pretty cancerous right now. I get quotes with ~$5k in labor for work that would take me a week to do in the worst case. That’s literally double my rate without considering that working for yourself is tax free. It baffles me that our markets are so inefficient that it’s 125% more effective for me to take time off my ‘highly skilled’ engineering job to do ‘low skilled’ renovation/repair work myself…

The unknown unknowns aren't worth it when you're risking the asset of your house. Yeah, you could spend hours on YouTube watching how to videos, spend a dozen hours on basic tools and safety skills, etc., but you're likely only gonna do this job once in 15+ years. And even then, you might still make it looks aesthetically ugly, not have the institutional knowledge of the best brands for parts that last, etc... it's r…

It's pretty common to both pay a lot and get a bad job done. I had a bathroom redone and the very expensive plumber sawed through 3/4 of the floor joists.

If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself.

I have noticed though that the large brand name plumbers are the most expensive. I think it's because they're mandated to upsell on any call. I hired one for $100 to replace some shower fixtures. But he spent 2 hours both figuring out what else he could do, and writing it all up and putting it in their database.

On that list of things was replacing the water pressure regulator. For $1500. It's a $300 part, and it screws on and off. Or you could buy a $100 restoration kit instead.

I was also recently quoted $1100 to replace two toilets. Not including the toilets. Looking online it should take 1-2 hours per toilet for an experienced plumber, and around $50-100 to dispose of each. So that's, at best, $200-$250 per hour. My hourly earnings after taxes are about $50. So I both learned how to, and replaced, the toilets in about 4 hours.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#897

Post by nostrebored »

rdevsrex wrote: post #616
nostrebored wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European elite go to American schools. Just like the elite from all around the world. The premise is faulty from the onset. Most ‘top’ European schools are mediocre outside of liberal arts degrees.

So ETH Zurich, L'École polytechnique, etc are not elite? What are talking about?

I said most. ETH Zurich and L'École are on the short list of 'real' universities in Europe for me.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#898

Post by nostrebored »

parineum wrote: post #696
NalNezumi wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish someone would have told me this is completely false when I was in college, then I wouldn't have been stressed about it. Truth is the education quality doesn't correlate that strongly with "top" University ranking; at above top X ranked university, or top university in respective country, the quality of education is mostly the same. The difference in the ranking only really reflects the research output/opportun…

> the quality of education is mostly the same. The difference in the ranking only really reflects the research output/opportunities and networking opportunities. I think the point of the top level comment here is exactly what you've said and additionally that the networking opportunities are actually what matter for success.

Exactly. If you have the opportunity to network with people who will actually be relevant in industry -- globally -- and the means to do it, you do. This is the whole point of many MBA programs.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#899

Post by TameAntelope »

_y3h9 wrote: post #869
TameAntelope wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not less qualified, that’s the whole problem. There is no stack rank of qualified candidates for a collegiate cohort, because it is not a precise or accurate process. There are more students who apply to Harvard each year with perfect SAT scores and who are valedictorians than there are openings in a given Harvard cohort.

Then why not choose randomly from them? If an Asian student and a black student both get perfect, identical results from huge amounts of hard work and intelligence, why should the Asian student be discriminated against? What have they done wrong, other than be part of a larger group that tends to put more effort in? Why should they be punished for other groups not putting in the same amount of effort theirs does? How…

Because we can do better than "random" to create superior outcomes for society. Right now, society hurts some racial groups and helps other racial groups. Picking candidates based on their race, once everyone remaining is qualified, helps undo some small part of that societal damage.

Improving campus diversity helps the kids too, as it exposes them to a more representative group of people that they're likely to encounter into the world, rather than one or a few massively overrepresented groups to the exclusion of other, less resource-available and marginalized groups. It makes the school better at preparing kids for post-college life.

Getting into Harvard, for the people who would do well at Harvard, is only one of many potential successful life paths for those kids. I think it's well past time we stop pretending like it's either Harvard or the streets.

Besides, if you're so disgusted by racism, you should be in support of trying to correct for it, not opposed. Doing nothing (what you suggested by applying "randomness") is how the current racist systems continue to thrive. Doing nothing is what the racists want, so they can keep on being racist, and holding down the "inferior" races (as they see it).

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#900

Post by mywittyname »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #880
throwawaycities wrote: post #451

I think the writing on the wall is clear regarding student loans. The entire notion of taxpayer funded student loans is a scam on both taxpayers and students. It’s a system that allows the colleges/universities to charge any tuition they want and guarantees there will be an artificial demand. For about a decade at least 1M student loan holders default per year. Long before the defaults reached that high, everyone inv…

Student loans aren't a scam , they work just fine. Unlimited student loans are a scam. Unlimited tuition increases and colleges taking advantage of unaware students is a scam. Colleges don't seem to understand "no" or budgets to new, unfunded enterprises and try to go beyond their own means. They'll just raise tuition to compensate. The government has to cap student loans, just like it has to cap medical care costs o…

Government-backed student loans for undergrad are capped. They are capped around $32k total and are distributed on a gradually-increasing schedule.

They also have been capped for decades now. So clearly that isn't the solution to the problem.

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