I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears • Hacker News Board

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#721

Post by Tretiotrr » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:52 AM UTC

walkhour wrote: post #436

Bromeo wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has three “tiers” of secondary education, of which only finishing the highest will qualify you for university admission. The rationale is that not everybody benefits from learning latin or higher mathematics, when instead a focus on more trade-related skills might benefit you much more in your further career. For late-bloomers, which might suffer under this system, it is still possible to progress from Haupts…

> For late-bloomers, which might suffer under this system, it is still possible to progress from Hauptschule to Realschule and finally Gymnasium and university Do you know how many people in Hauptschule make it to university? > Also, the average attendance for Hauptschule is I must acknowledge I thought it was 25%, it must've changed in recent years. > Wouldn’t you agree that at least 10% ... Thank you for the questi…

Everyone can go to FOS or the BOS to get further educated.

I went to Realschule, made a 3 year apprenticeship as a software engineer and went for 2 further years to bos.

I'm now able to study.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#722

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:52 AM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #385

wolverine876 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> College prepares people to be adults in every way This can't be good because it suggests that 30%+ of the adult population aren't prepared to be adults.

It doesn't, unless you want to construe it in an extreme, argumentative way. There's an HN guideline about this.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#723

Post by randomdata » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:53 AM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #374

epicureanideal wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> farm workers is an exception to laws such that they can be paid below minimum wage. I’m all for setting the minimum wage for farm workers at $25/hr. Within 2-3 years every manual farm worker will be replaced by a machine, and we’ll all be better off for it. Well, not the manual workers, temporarily. But then we’ll have to deal with the problem of unemployment honestly rather than leaving make-work jobs around.

Unemployment for migrant workers means they won't come so that isn't a problem. The real problem is machines can't replace those jobs or they would have. 25/h would mean very high prices for local food so everything will come via imports.

> Unemployment for migrant workers means they won't come so that isn't a problem.

It is a problem for them. They wouldn't come if it weren't economically advantageous to do so. Losing those jobs leaves them worse off, at least in the short term.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#724

Post by mschuster91 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:53 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

> Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable.

You forgot the most important one for companies: use college or the preference for "ivy league" institutions which is on its own a neutral requirement as a proxy to weed out "undesirables" without violating the ADA and other laws: people with mental health issues and many physical disabilities don't stand a chance for the top grades, as do people from poor financial background.

It's all about keeping "corporate culture" aka White, rich and able. Anyone else is left for the bottom jobs of society.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#725

Post by Tretiotrr » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:54 AM UTC

flatiron wrote: post #145

Tretiotrr wrote: post #57

In Germany you study for free. There was a video (perhaps even from kurzgesagt) which describes how critical it is for our society to allow as many people as easy access to knowledge as possible and not only for obvious reasons but also to increase the chance for all of us that the hidden genius is finding a cure for cancer. You can even study for free in Germany as an non German. You know what happens? Those people…

I think the argument would be better if Germany was some sort of education haven. My cousin fosters study abroad kids in the US and most are German. They say the German education isn’t anything to tout and having an American education on your CV is a big +. I’m not saying this whole thing is perfect but I just don’t see anyone banging down the doors for a German education.

We joke that the us learning system is only 4 answers away due to the thing with multiple choice.

I have no clue if your education system is better or ours.

It's just that we think multiple choice tests are easier than free form.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#726

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:54 AM UTC

nsonha wrote: post #541

wolverine876 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people think college prepares them to be resource for corporation, or some other things. They do? And if they do, is it true? Who are we talking about? High school students? People who read HN? > from my exp, college has nothing to do with growing as an adult. It's mainly moving out of your hometown and work your part time job and start planning your life. That's too bad. There is so much more going on. What a…

that's not what "adult" means, you've chosen the wrong word, and now you are changing the definition of "adult" to an activist who has to have opinions about grandiose things in the world. Again you keep making the argument that university is the only place where you can learn how to think, which is a pretty basic human skill. If that was true, then it's a dangerous system that needs to be fixed, not something to cel…

Only activists have opinions about "grandiose things in the world"????!!!

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#727

Post by AussieWog93 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:55 AM UTC

throwawaycities wrote: post #451

I think the writing on the wall is clear regarding student loans. The entire notion of taxpayer funded student loans is a scam on both taxpayers and students. It’s a system that allows the colleges/universities to charge any tuition they want and guarantees there will be an artificial demand. For about a decade at least 1M student loan holders default per year. Long before the defaults reached that high, everyone inv…

>The entire notion of taxpayer funded student loans is a scam on both taxpayers and students. It’s a system that allows the colleges/universities to charge any tuition they want and guarantees there will be an artificial demand.

Just for what it's worth, Australia has a taxpayer-funded student loan scheme (HECS) and the obscene fees you see in the US simply aren't a problem here. A full 4-year Electrical Engineering degree from Monash cost me about A$30k back in 2012. It looks like now they're around $40k. Even for an arts grad, this is something one could comfortably pay off in 2-3 years.

I don't know the specifics as to why this is the case, but it's clearly something that can work with proper regulation.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#728

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:55 AM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #416

KerrAvon wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vomit. Was Tom Swift an self-centered emerald scion who got lucky with money and poured it into his pet projects? News to me. Seriously, Musk came into a ton of money in the dot-com era, knew how to maintain that money because of his background, seems to be a capable hands-on project manager and natural self-marketing. You surely know people smarter than him who didn't acquire the mass amounts of money required to do…

Whatever your opinion on Musk is, he is at least an inspirational figure that helps inspire the next generation of kids. No 10-year olds are talking about how to become a savvy financial engineer like Jack Welch at GE, but they are talking about rockets and electric cars thanks to Musk.

I sure hope he is not inspiring them!

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#729

Post by randomdata » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:55 AM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #213

mike00632 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's based on the entry level salary for California tech workers being six figures whereas the wage for farm workers is an exception to laws such that they can be paid below minimum wage.

> farm workers is an exception to laws such that they can be paid below minimum wage. I’m all for setting the minimum wage for farm workers at $25/hr. Within 2-3 years every manual farm worker will be replaced by a machine, and we’ll all be better off for it. Well, not the manual workers, temporarily. But then we’ll have to deal with the problem of unemployment honestly rather than leaving make-work jobs around.

The thing about minimum wage is that it is not a maximum wage. These days you're not going to find much farm help unless you're up into the $20 per hour range already anyway. Being able to theoretically pay less doesn't mean much when nobody shows up.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#730

Post by rswail » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:57 AM UTC

gen220 wrote: post #400

imgabe wrote: post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

This is a great call-out. To put it another way, if the university system was a public company, there would be activist shareholders advocating that the company be split. Each of these entities would perform better without the distractions of the others. One problem with splitting, is that each sub-system has become somewhat parasitic on the other three to a harmful degree, as you hint at. The particular blend depend…

The entire US "college sports" nonsense is completely separable and unnecessary to tertiary education.

As is the "4 year college experience" nonsense that has students travelling "away from home for the first time".

It's entirely a US-based dysfunctional system.

The problem with tertiary education is that it is now considered "necessary" for most employment, so therefore what used to be research institutions are now considered just an extension of secondary education.

But at the same time, the research aspect of university, being a repository of knowledge and of learning has been reduced by academic beancounters to literally counting names on papers in journals.

Tertiary undergraduate degrees are entirely vocational and should be taught that way. No one expects senior high school teachers to also "publish or perish" or be responsible for bringing grants and income into the high school.

If I'm hiring someone in my field (IT) I literally don't care if they have done a post graduate degree. Completing an MSc or PhD or equivalent adds nothing to the characteristics I want in an IT employee.

The same applies to pharmacists, engineers, doctors, lawyers, art curators, librarians, accountants, marketers, etc, etc. They are all vocations and require the same sort of training structure that applies to plumbers and electricians and plasterers and roof installers.

If someone wants to be a physicist or chemist, or a computer scientist, or a mathematician, or an art historian, or other actual "liberal arts and sciences" role, then that should be an undergraduate degree in "researcher" along with the fundamentals of their chosen art/science field.

And to get back to the original point about college sports, if someone wants to be a professional sportsperson, then that is again a vocational degree with a specialization.