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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH, I actually have an engineering degree and I can't build a bridge, a radio, or a robot, despite having looked at all those things during the course. People who can actually do it have done it for a lab or a business, and then get accredited. My impression of the engineering degree is that it's basically a certificate in being able to deep dive into... something. Whether that's actual bridges or financial derivat…

Entirely fair. I've worked as an engineering manager for both professional engineers and non-degreed technicians / technologists. My observation (such as it is) is that the degreed engineers had a stronger framework to be able to connect ideas and learn new skills. On the other hand, technologists were able to do tasks just as well as engineers but had trouble generalizing the concepts. Importantly, the degree (combi…

Thanks for this. As someone who also hates undergrad with a burning passion (taking classes that seem irrelevant) you helped frame this in a way I can appreciate and reconsider.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#672

Sam Altman makes a lot of grandiose predictions and statements. For example, in 2019 he said “Human radiologists are already much worse than computer radiologists. If I had to pick a human or an AI to read my scan, I’d pick the AI.” [0] However, most people with domain knowledge in this space still would not want their scan not to be read by a human. The AI radiology apps are generally narrowly focused and useful for…

Ok? 1. That’s his job as an investor. Getting one big outlier prediction right makes up for a hundred wrong ones. 2. These predictions tend to provoke interesting debates(that’s probably Sama’s intent here).

Why should we pay any attention to someone who needs get only one prediction right? That suggests a probability of correct predictions that approaches zero. Let me know when a prediction comes out true. I would be foolish to pay any attention before then.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first three bullets are all the same thing. “How to think” and knowledge of culture are marketable skills, as is experience with cutting-edge research. I don’t know where you got the idea that learning about “art” is an essential job of college. I wish it were, but it’s not. And I agree that college sports are too big of their own business. Fundamentally you cannot “train” people for jobs that don’t exist yet. I…

> you cannot “train” people for jobs that don’t exist yet I've heard this phrase multiple times before... and yet, doctors have been studying bio, lawyers studying laws/cases, and engineers math - for hundreds of years. I don't want someone who did 4 years of philosophy and knows how to think deeply about things performing my heart surgery. The first three bullet points are not the same thing partly because one of th…

> I don't want someone who did 4 years of philosophy and knows how to think deeply about things performing my heart surgery

a) you’re not getting that, if you know anything about med school admissions and b) why not? This is such a reductivist view of knowledge and talent.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#674

Sam Altman makes a lot of grandiose predictions and statements. For example, in 2019 he said “Human radiologists are already much worse than computer radiologists. If I had to pick a human or an AI to read my scan, I’d pick the AI.” [0] However, most people with domain knowledge in this space still would not want their scan not to be read by a human. The AI radiology apps are generally narrowly focused and useful for…

Perhaps he is wrong about many things, but your post comes across as an ad hominem that doesn't respond to any of his points.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student debt has exploded because notwithstanding their outrageous tax advantages colleges are demonstrably profit maximizing firms. They induce unlimited demand for ever more credentials though a process of continual devaluation and then charge as much as the market will possibly bear through extremely sophisticated price discrimination. Politicians answer to this crisis of rapaciousness is to suggest that the publi…

Let me explain a line of reasoning that would refute the explanation you provide for the ballooning debt. Universities have not generally changed the way they do things, universities have always been the four things OP listed since forever, even when you likely got your degree (assuming you did, or at the very least most of hacker news did), they were those four things too! Therefore, there is no inherent thing to un…

Gross oversimplification. In 1960s when states funded a higher proportion of things, students in wheelchairs might have no place to pee and women were not guaranteed same opportunities as men.

Even into the 1980s buildings were simple brutalist concrete dungeons and A/C was not an expectation; there was no campus IT; no plethora of career placement systems; counseling office; Title IX compliance office; free medical clinics; fancy rec centers, and numerous other amenities.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look how many people have taken this same approach - purposely miscontrue the discussion into a personal attack and respond. Perhaps people who did go to college can also take discussion personally and get mad about others saying they wasted their time and money. Then we'll have an even better discussion! Yes, I'm saying that you personally - and your dog too - are an ignorant, uneducated, menial worker, who can't co…

I'm not taking offense so much as refuting your argument. Did I use that word right?

I dunno (I'm being kinda folksy!). It was just arguing and not really qualifying as a refutation, which generally but not always implies proof. (I did look that up to check my suspicion, but in a big dictionary.)

I would be interested in people's experiences, good and bad, with having (not) gone to college, and serious analysis - everyone seems to be trying to shut down any serious discussion and exploration.

I went to college and I've had many times that I wished I'd studied harder. I've also wished at times that I skipped college then and went later in life, when I would benefit far more. I haven't wished that I didn't go; I learned so much that forms my understanding of the world, my thinking skills, etc.; I would be a different person without it. You can't tell me that I didn't benefit greatly from college but I'm just one person. But can you tell anyone that they studied for four years, hard, and didn't learn much? That's a big stretch for anyone; you need to learn enough to pass ~32 classes at various college levels, and that's a minimum.

Many people say here that 'I didn't go and I'm fine'. Fine isn't the question; nobody said we'd die without it, but that's not our standard for our choices. Each path leads to different collections of outcomes, better and worse and completely different, and we have blind spots about what the other path could be like (having no experience of it). Maybe college emphasizes different skills, develops different tools, with different advantages and disadvantages, as an example of how that would work.

I also wonder how much HN readers think of or have experienced STEM only. The humanities is more important (unpopular, I know, and both are essential IMHO); it addresses the most critical issues in the world and life, the ones beyond quantitative understanding, which is most of them.

I watched a bunch of Shakespeare plays recently, fictionalized histories of Rome and England [0]. From them you learn more about our current society and humanity in general, including today's crazy disfuntion, the mis/disinformation and people's responses, than from all the quantitative research combined; art is a mirror that looks into ourselves. And as objects of another human being's creation, they are incredibly inspirational and beautiful. I'm wiser and have grown since a week ago. Would I turn to Shakespeare and get so much from the plays without studying literature in college? I doubt it, though that's just me.

[0] Without knowing the reader's experience with the Bard, let me recommend Julius Caesar especially, also Henry VI Part 2 and Part 3, and of course their sequel, Richard III. Richard II is good too. I'd skip Henry VI Part 1 but read a synopsis as context for Part 2: Part 1 is clearly substandard IMHO and, it turns out, is believed to be mostly written by a collaborator, Christopher Marlowe. It does constrast the difference between an excellent playwright of their day using the same forms and an all-time genius of character and language.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#677

I think the writing on the wall is clear regarding student loans. The entire notion of taxpayer funded student loans is a scam on both taxpayers and students. It’s a system that allows the colleges/universities to charge any tuition they want and guarantees there will be an artificial demand. For about a decade at least 1M student loan holders default per year. Long before the defaults reached that high, everyone inv…

So you're saying that higher education is (yet another) public good that fails when turned in to a for-profit enterprise?

Correct, we can't realistically untether higher education from public dollars, so the public should get to exercise more oversight.

Whether it is the loans or the reduced property taxes, the public is always footing part of the bill.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#678
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that there was a stronger tie to college helping with being "well rounded" years ago, when most of the authority figures in your life up until college were politically conservative? So college might be your first experience where there were more politically liberal authority figures?

That is an interesting point. My dad entered college having grown up in some pretty fundamentalist, anti-evolution church, and became a doctor and an cosmopolitan sort of intellectual. He switched to a liberal church and learned about Darwin, and all sorts of stuff. But I took Attic Greek and Old English and weird English literary theory and Russian history and medieval history. I don’t directly use that stuff, but i…

Right now, some knowledge of Russian history and 19th century European history is very useful. Because we're in a war that looks like a 19th century war. Like the many wars involving the British Empire, the Imperial State of Germany, the Prussian Empire, the Austria-Hungarian Empire, and France. The era of the Great Powers, engaged in power grabs for reasons people thought were good at the time.

That's what we're seeing now. Understanding where that led last time is useful.

In the 19th century, nobody had that all much firepower. Battles were local. When that changed, the routine minor wars of the 19th century turned into World War One.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#679
post #424
post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

One thing I was told as a grad student that I've never forgotten is, "Nobody has ever won a Nobel prize for having happy students". At the time, I was struggling to keep up with the marking demands of a new (i.e. This was the first year it was taught) course I was TA'ing. I had around a hundred students and each one was generating 10-20 pages of handwritten lab reports per week. Student writing varied from human type…

Super weird take IMO- I remember reading Feynman talk about how being able to teach was critical to being a great researcher. Similarly it seems that lots of faculty utilize the various experiences and perspectives of their graduate students to advance their own research. Teaching helps give them ideas so to speak.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#680

Sam Altman makes a lot of grandiose predictions and statements. For example, in 2019 he said “Human radiologists are already much worse than computer radiologists. If I had to pick a human or an AI to read my scan, I’d pick the AI.” [0] However, most people with domain knowledge in this space still would not want their scan not to be read by a human. The AI radiology apps are generally narrowly focused and useful for…

Sam Altman and his buddies are incredibly out of touch with the real world. In a related tweet, he said [0]:

> A version of college replacement I'm super interested in:

Find the smartest and most driven 18 year olds in the world, and give them 'tenure'--say a decade+ of salary, resources to work on whatever they want, and a smart peer group--in exchange for small % of future earnings.

Completely agree with your statement:

> I'll add to this that it's generally a bad idea to make big predictions outside of areas that you have strong domain knowledge in. I doubt Sam Altman has strong domain knowledge around US higher education. Unfortunately, Silicon Valley culture is full of people who feel that because they've succeeded in one domain they have some kind of hidden insight into others.

It's a cognitive biased called halo effect [1]. Although, in this case, I would question if Altman is good at anything except somehow convincing Paul Graham to lead YC (as a sister comment points out).

[0]: https://twitter.com/sama/status/1505599701864701954

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect

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