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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#471
I don't understand why the answer here isn't just to radically increase the supply of college-level education. People always push back on this and say that college is a status signaling mechanism, which is true as far as it goes, but there is clearly a market for even very expensive low-status school (see: all for-profit colleges).

All that aside, I don't know that Sam Altman is the most effective person to deliver this message, since it's sort of a cliched thing for someone in his role to say. It's especially cringe-y since he's seasoned his thread with a culture war appeal.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#472

I'm concerned that the majority of "should we fix college or should we circumvent college" conversations don't bring up one of the scariest parts of our current economy: STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. All of the conversations I've seen implicitly assume that this is good, and that the solution to farmer workers (or other low paid workers) escaping poverty is to train them as so…

If everyone becomes a software dev, then you will end up with the starving software dev who waits tables while trying to make it big in software.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#474
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I was told as a grad student that I've never forgotten is, "Nobody has ever won a Nobel prize for having happy students". At the time, I was struggling to keep up with the marking demands of a new (i.e. This was the first year it was taught) course I was TA'ing. I had around a hundred students and each one was generating 10-20 pages of handwritten lab reports per week. Student writing varied from human type…

I don't think Nobel prizes and happy students are mutually exclusive

I don't read it at mutually exclusive, more that pleasing students is not going to advance your research. So more of a witty, be mindful about what you are trying to achieve, what the preconditions actually are and direct effort appropriately.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plenty of opportunity in all kinds of software. Ad supported webapps get the headlines because they (or at least the ones you're thinking about) aggregate really well, but there's a lot of work out there. I mean, take a look at the next "who's hiring" page. Ad supported webapps seem pretty well represented. > Academic physics research is not very useful economically, since we've figured out most of the stuff that w…

> I mean, take a look at the next "who's hiring" page. Ad supported webapps seem pretty well represented. This is hackernews. The organization that founded this site has mostly made its billions by investing in web properties. They are branching out these days, but that's the demographic. > battery technology isn't advancing. Academic physics research is not very useful economically because we've defined "useful econ…

> First off, I don't think most physics labs are researching anything even remotely useful to improving batteries. But for the ones that are, let's do fund them.

The problem is, we don't know which ones those are. We won't know, until the discoveries and advancements they make are refined to the point where they can produce batteries.

That's my point - the actual work that needs to happen to make something new that can be put into an "economically useful" product happens 20-30 years beforehand. That's what we need to fund.

> "Battery cell energy densities have almost tripled since 2010 [as of 2020]"

We have a different definition of "rapidly", and a different definition of need. Battery density is the single largest brake on the day-to-day usefulness of electronic devices right now. 3x is nothing. 10x is better, 100x is what we probably need.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#476
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM students are subsidized by liberal arts students Can you provide more context for this? How is the cost of teaching a STEM student higher than the cost of a liberal arts student? The classrooms are roughly the same. STEM student labs might be more expensive to manage, but that equipment is/(can be?) funded by research grants.

STEM professors have to be paid a lot more than liberal arts professors (due to competition for STEM talent). Equipment for teaching isn’t covered under research grants, but might come from overhead on those grants, but more likely from donations (from big corps), grants, or tuition.

Business professors are paid even more.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like how the word STEM gets thrown around because I feel it whitewashes the fact that most of the opportunity is in ad-supported web apps. Anyone trying to work in chemistry or physics finds this out the hard way.

Yeah. My friends with PhDs in physics are working in software engineering departments at startups and FAANG, their educations almost completely irrelevant to the work they do. At our college reunion, a beloved physics professor was disappointed that not one of his former students at the reunion was still in physics. But I am not sure why he was surprised given how hard and unpleasant it is to stay in academia/researc…

> There’s no real opportunity in physics or math without essentially switching to software eventually.

In a real free-market scenario, would'nt those PhD programs be drastically reduced?

I suspect this is because this physics PhD program is providing an implicit signalling function, that the fellow out of this program is worth more than the ave college guy - doing the same programming job - because he proved himself on more complex study materials.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

college is delaying young people to become mature, we're producing giant babies these days, thanks to endless parenting, online gaming, social screen time, now probably even metaverse, you name it. on the STEM subject, teens good at math are never teacher's favorites, instead they're called nerds and some are even isolated from the rest, it's quite the opposite in Asia, or even in Europe. That's the root cause we nee…

I think your views on how kids view their peers who are good at math are outdated. For example, NASA gear has, fairly recently, become a fashion trend [1]. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/9tk0jw/w...

good to know. a drop in the ocean is a good start. I will buy a few.

my kids are still in k-12, nothing has really changed for them though.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#479

I'm concerned that the majority of "should we fix college or should we circumvent college" conversations don't bring up one of the scariest parts of our current economy: STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. All of the conversations I've seen implicitly assume that this is good, and that the solution to farmer workers (or other low paid workers) escaping poverty is to train them as so…

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

What is often missing in the evaluation of US colleges is just how different they are from most European colleges. I compare, for instance, with the Spanish system. A very high percentage of young Spaniards go to college, just like in the US. However, this whole idea of "learning how to learn" and "college is about learning to be an adult" is completely missing there. All the electives that have nothing to do with your major? Nope. Going to college with an undeclared major? Nope. An experience where most students live, eat and sleep on campus? Again, no.

What does a computer science student take in their first year? In year 1, in my hometown's university, through year 1, a student takes Linear Algebra, Calculus, Human-Machine interaction, Computer Hardware Fundamentals, Electrical engineering fundamentals, Intro to programming, Logic, Discrete Math, Discrete Automata, Numerical Methods, and intro to software engineering. Very different from an American University that might have 1 or 2 years worth of cross-major electives.

This is not unique to computing: A 1st year med students (which you get to start at 18), is going to be crushed under a pile of biology, biostatistics, cytology, anatomy and the like. Literature? Philosophy? History? You better have taken those in high school if you wanted to learn them, because college has no time for you to decide what you want to do with your life.

I am not going to try to figure out which system is better in the short or the long run, but it makes it pretty clear that college in the US is nowhere near close to universal in western countries, even after we take away the unique financial challenges the US gives college students.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vomit. Was Tom Swift an self-centered emerald scion who got lucky with money and poured it into his pet projects? News to me. Seriously, Musk came into a ton of money in the dot-com era, knew how to maintain that money because of his background, seems to be a capable hands-on project manager and natural self-marketing. You surely know people smarter than him who didn't acquire the mass amounts of money required to do…

> Vomit. LOL. C'mon, Musk builds rockets, electric cars, robot trucks, and tunnel boring machines. How much more Tom Swift can one get? Ok, Ok, I admit he hasn't yet built a Jetmarine or an Atomic Earth Blaster. > You surely know people smarter than him who didn't acquire the mass amounts of money I've never met Musk, so cannot attest personally to his smarts. But I've met plenty of very smart people. But smarts alon…

8. Lots of money.
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