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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#231

Post by derbOac »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #4

Seems like a pretty unremarkable collection of surface level observations if you ask me

As a former professor I agree.

Universities have been around for a long time. They're some of the oldest institutions in contemporary civilization, and they're increasing in importance. They've survived upheavals that overshadow anything in our lifetimes. So I've been skeptical of prediction of its demise.

Still, there are serious problems with modern academics and higher education, and the doomsayers have some valid points. So I've thought it's possible.

After the pandemic though I wasn't sure so much about their imminent demise anymore. Students really wanted to return due to the social value it provided. It's not like institutions started collapsing.

I think it would require holders of wealth to shift in the status markers they value. So far it's still one of the primary ones.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#232

Post by flatiron »

manuelabeledo wrote: post #154
flatiron wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument would be better if Germany was some sort of education haven. My cousin fosters study abroad kids in the US and most are German. They say the German education isn’t anything to tout and having an American education on your CV is a big +. I’m not saying this whole thing is perfect but I just don’t see anyone banging down the doors for a German education.

> They say the German education isn’t anything to tout and having an American education on your CV is a big +. Having lived in Europe for 30+ years, I have never heard of this outside higher education at very famous institutions, e.g. Stanford, Harvard, MIT. In fact, primary and secondary schools in the US are usually seen as quite insufficient.

Where in Europe? I’ve hired in both Portugal and Germany and have seen a ton of US education. This is for developer positions I would expect it different if you are hiring line cooks.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#233

Post by nsonha »

wolverine876 wrote: post #171
mind-blight wrote: post #58

I'm concerned that the majority of "should we fix college or should we circumvent college" conversations don't bring up one of the scariest parts of our current economy: STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. All of the conversations I've seen implicitly assume that this is good, and that the solution to farmer workers (or other low paid workers) escaping poverty is to train them as so…

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations.

Most people think college prepares them to be resource for corporation, or some other things. Your college education coincides with your formative years, but from my exp, college has nothing to do with growing as an adult. It's mainly moving out of your hometown and work your part time job and start planning your life.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#234

Post by rayiner »

sammalloy wrote: post #219
charrondev wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. As If you have to go to college to become an adult. A lot of college programs seem like their purpose is for some very wealthy and sheltered children to become “cultured”, but that is completely unrelated to the skills needed to be a functioning adult or to take significant responsibilities in your life.

Without a well-informed populace, democracy cannot function. Contrary to what you have argued, becoming cultured (in other words, understanding the philosophy, ethics, history, and fundamental assumptions about how and why society functions) are essential skills for taking responsibility, and the lack of these skills is behind virtually every major deficiency in society. College and university were never supposed to…

> Without a well-informed populace, democracy cannot function. Contrary to what you have argued, becoming cultured (in other words, understanding the philosophy, ethics, history, and fundamental assumptions about how and why society functions)

Look at the marvels modern democracy has created with a population that mostly wasn’t college educated. Does democracy work better today, with vastly higher college graduation rates, than it did 30 years ago?

Also, I have two step siblings in college and they aren’t learning any of those things. They’re learning fantasies that make them less well-equipped to deal with reality than their parents and grandparents who didn’t go to college.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#235

Post by argomo »

antholeole wrote: post #119
tough wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macro-farms and thousands of automation systems can make your need for human labour decrease more rapidly than people can find other jobs... It´s going to be a fuckin´mess, 4 dudes richer and everyone else screwed

Not sure about this: everyone else screwed seems kind of a far reach. If you consider screwed “unable to buy luxuries” then maybe, but I consider screwed “unable to buy food” and Macro farms stand to make food substantially cheaper. How will the four people get richer if the food they create is priced so high that no one can buy it? I get this is deeply economic and philosophical, but it’s an interesting thought expe…

Before it gets that far, they build a hierarchy of underlings that oppress the labor force. (See CGP Grey's "the rules for rulers" on YouTube.)

Either that or everyone else gets fed up and violently overthrows them. It could, perhaps, be avoided with higher taxes on the rich, but the rich have the most influence over the tax code.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#236

Post by [deleted] »

crackercrews wrote: post #52

Definitely agree that removing the SAT appears to be related to the upcoming supreme court case about affirmative action. COVID was a good reason to delay it for a couple years. But schools are pushing it out further. That makes no sense. It seems the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning. What's next? Get rid of the driver's license test because it turns that white…

[deleted]

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#237

Post by QuadmasterXLII »

moltke wrote: post #75
crackercrews wrote: post #52

Definitely agree that removing the SAT appears to be related to the upcoming supreme court case about affirmative action. COVID was a good reason to delay it for a couple years. But schools are pushing it out further. That makes no sense. It seems the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning. What's next? Get rid of the driver's license test because it turns that white…

Quoted post unavailable.

15 day old account, comments so far: races are just have different academic aptitudes, the US needs fewer immigrants, crypto is cool, the US needs fewer immigrants again, and the main agenda: the US needs to stop sending weapons to Ukraine.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#238

Post by lordnacho »

sammalloy wrote: post #219
charrondev wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. As If you have to go to college to become an adult. A lot of college programs seem like their purpose is for some very wealthy and sheltered children to become “cultured”, but that is completely unrelated to the skills needed to be a functioning adult or to take significant responsibilities in your life.

Without a well-informed populace, democracy cannot function. Contrary to what you have argued, becoming cultured (in other words, understanding the philosophy, ethics, history, and fundamental assumptions about how and why society functions) are essential skills for taking responsibility, and the lack of these skills is behind virtually every major deficiency in society. College and university were never supposed to…

That's what high school is for, you should already know a fair bit about government when you leave there. Likewise about lifelong learning.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#239

Post by zozbot234 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #230
zozbot234 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...are just more academically inclined than others... It's not "races", it's culture. We should just remove this whole idea of "race" from our understanding of social phenomena, all it can do is mislead. There are African, Black subcultures like the Igbo and Ashanti that achieve to the highest levels academically (including in the West!) and Asian subcultures that don't place any focus on education, and struggle as…

> It's not "races", it's culture. This is not much better, and is often used (without implicating the parent commenter) by racists as codeword cover. Again, I'm not implicating you, but consider for what reasons they use it. Think about it: What do you know about these 'cultures'? Have you lived in one? How do you even define the word - is there a definition outside pop politics? Is it a static thing? Over time or sp…

> One thing that does correlate with educational outcomes, more than anything iirc, is parental wealth.

Really? I'd love to see a study on how kids of lottery winners fare wrt. educational outcomes. That would be the real way to isolate that "wealth" factor from differences in cultural norms (and yes, generational effects of previous achievement, such as your grandparents being literate and passing on a basic awareness of education to their descendants) that merely happen to correlate in the long run with wealth. Want to take bets?

> ... One way or another, there is always a reason to shoot down anything that will give black people a way up, and it's been true for generations. ...

I really, really don't understand this claim. "Culture" is actually a very malleable thing even in the short-to-medium term, so if it happens to be a big causal factor on bad outcomes this means that efforts to help Black people achieve are more, not less likely to succeed! Compare "racism and discrimination" which basically nobody knows how to tackle in anything like an effective way. If anything it may well be that once broad outcomes improve, this will help obviate much of the previously existing motive for harmful prejudice and discrimination against Blacks.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#240

Post by fock »

flatiron wrote: post #145
Tretiotrr wrote: post #57

In Germany you study for free. There was a video (perhaps even from kurzgesagt) which describes how critical it is for our society to allow as many people as easy access to knowledge as possible and not only for obvious reasons but also to increase the chance for all of us that the hidden genius is finding a cure for cancer. You can even study for free in Germany as an non German. You know what happens? Those people…

I think the argument would be better if Germany was some sort of education haven. My cousin fosters study abroad kids in the US and most are German. They say the German education isn’t anything to tout and having an American education on your CV is a big +. I’m not saying this whole thing is perfect but I just don’t see anyone banging down the doors for a German education.

most of the people I know, who do this kind of "study abroad" in highschool (which to my understanding is on average well below Abitur/A-levels) have their parents paying (quite a bit) for the privilege^. From what I've seen around, most of this activity is centered also around private "pay-to-your-A-levels"-schools. Notably these people might think of + on their CV (while being stupid).

^And then our public school had some funded, hidden exchange with Geelong Grammar school :)

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