I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears • Hacker News Board

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#101

Post by zozbot234 » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:22 PM UTC

moltke wrote: post #75

crackercrews wrote: post #52

Definitely agree that removing the SAT appears to be related to the upcoming supreme court case about affirmative action. COVID was a good reason to delay it for a couple years. But schools are pushing it out further. That makes no sense. It seems the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning. What's next? Get rid of the driver's license test because it turns that white…

Quoted post unavailable.

> ...are just more academically inclined than others...

It's not "races", it's culture. We should just remove this whole idea of "race" from our understanding of social phenomena, all it can do is mislead. There are African, Black subcultures like the Igbo and Ashanti that achieve to the highest levels academically (including in the West!) and Asian subcultures that don't place any focus on education, and struggle as a result. Culture is what matters. Forget race.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#102

Post by boppo1 » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:26 PM UTC

Tretiotrr wrote: post #57

In Germany you study for free. There was a video (perhaps even from kurzgesagt) which describes how critical it is for our society to allow as many people as easy access to knowledge as possible and not only for obvious reasons but also to increase the chance for all of us that the hidden genius is finding a cure for cancer. You can even study for free in Germany as an non German. You know what happens? Those people…

Cool, I got a 2.3 GPA in highschool and college but would love to try again. Where should I apply? I don't mind moving to Germany.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#103

Post by boppo1 » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:28 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #16

spywaregorilla wrote: post #4

Seems like a pretty unremarkable collection of surface level observations if you ask me

The point about not forgiving debt without solving the underlying problem seems to be missing from much of the student debt debate. Though, the most surprising thing to me was needing to provide a privilege statement in order to speak at the college event. How the hell can anyone provide any sort of nuanced insight into the privilege and challenges they faced in a "disclosure"? It reeks of enacting a miniature strugg…

> It reeks of enacting a miniature struggle session to undermine the speaker before they even have a chance to talk.

Maybe the Long March through Institutions was real...

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#104

Post by gruez » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:29 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #65

The elephant in the room is that college doesn't teach you anything you need to know at a job. I'm not talking about the obvious exceptions like medicine or law (though even that can be done as a conversion rather than an undergrad degree) or anything else where you literally need the paper that says you can do it. I'm also not talking about becoming a researcher, where obvious you need to know a bit of X to become a…

>All the degree signals is that you somehow gathered yourself and read a bunch of books and solved a bunch of questions. That's somehow supposed to be evidence that you can learn their business.

>[...]

>In terms of helping the economy, it's really not efficient. Everyone has to sit around for three or four years when they really want to be working, and everyone who can't find the money/time to do it is cut out from middle class aspirational jobs.

What's the alternative? Like you said yourself, employers want some sort of signal that you're reasonably smart and can put the work in. You can't really replace that with a 6 month bootcamp.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#105

Post by frogperson » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:34 PM UTC

Tretiotrr wrote: post #57

In Germany you study for free. There was a video (perhaps even from kurzgesagt) which describes how critical it is for our society to allow as many people as easy access to knowledge as possible and not only for obvious reasons but also to increase the chance for all of us that the hidden genius is finding a cure for cancer. You can even study for free in Germany as an non German. You know what happens? Those people…

If they made college free in America it would be severely underfunded and suffer all the same problems as American high school.

If there is no money in something, then it's assumed there is no value. It's the American way.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#106

Post by alanbernstein » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:40 PM UTC

nickysielicki wrote: post #71

alanbernstein wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I've asked this exact question before, but I've changed my mind. Here is what I'd tell them: "Congratulations on being wealthy enough to afford tuition. Try to be considerate of the people less fortunate than you."

If it was $60k of opportunity cost I might be willing to accept it as a progressive tax and let bygones be bygones. But $600k likely represents half of their net worth. "Considerate" only goes so far.

Yeah, $60k is closer to the amount that I was complaining about having already paid. But you're not wrong; I'm just trying to keep the greater good in mind. How about: "Try to consider how much you and your family will benefit from the improvements made possible to society and the economy by redirecting billions of dollars from loan payments to other spending."

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#107

Post by lordnacho » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #104

lordnacho wrote: post #65

The elephant in the room is that college doesn't teach you anything you need to know at a job. I'm not talking about the obvious exceptions like medicine or law (though even that can be done as a conversion rather than an undergrad degree) or anything else where you literally need the paper that says you can do it. I'm also not talking about becoming a researcher, where obvious you need to know a bit of X to become a…

>All the degree signals is that you somehow gathered yourself and read a bunch of books and solved a bunch of questions. That's somehow supposed to be evidence that you can learn their business. >[...] >In terms of helping the economy, it's really not efficient. Everyone has to sit around for three or four years when they really want to be working, and everyone who can't find the money/time to do it is cut out from m…

Massive online learning/examination system, fewer places in university, reserved for people who actually are going to be professors.

Everyone else sits at home and just learns the stuff and does the exams while driving an uber. It will take a lot less time to just jump the math hoops than to do four years of half holidays, eg my total university time was actually 96 weeks but spread over 4 years. So a couple of years of doing that and people can see you can learn stuff.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#108

Post by gruez » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

colpabar wrote: post #100

gruez wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. >We really need farm workers, and most of them live in poverty. I love having more engineers, scientists, and doctors, but we desperately need non-STEM work to be a viable option This is basically a non-problem because of the supply/demand mechanics of the labor market. If farm workers' job gets sufficiently bad from a value proposition perspecti…

> If farm workers' job gets sufficiently bad from a value proposition perspective, then people will leave the occupation and employers would be forced to pay higher wages to attract workers. Serious question - have you ever been poor? Are you aware that sometimes people have to work at shitty jobs because they have no other options? And, if employers really would "be forced to pay higher wages" as you claim, why are…

>Serious question - have you ever been poor? Are you aware that sometimes people have to work at shitty jobs because they have no other options?

OP was talking about the problem from a practical perspective (ie. "We really need farm workers", presumably worried about a future where there aren't enough farm workers and we starve or something), and I was addressing that in the same way. Your objection seems to be from a humanitarian perspective (ie. how can we provide a minimum standard of living to non-STEM workers?), which is valid concern, but ultimately not relevant to the original problem.

>And, if employers really would "be forced to pay higher wages" as you claim, why are all the restaurants in my city still short staffed?

combination of:

1. stubbornness/price stickiness

2. belief that it's better to hold out in the short term and wait for the labor supply to return, then it is to give out pay raises now. Wages are sticky, which mean wage hikes would turn into ongoing expenses into the future.

3. belief that the raising wages would raise prices, which would decrease demand and ultimately make the business worse off.

>I'm not claiming to have a solution but claiming "the market will fix it" seems like such a cop-out, like telling someone god will take care of it.

The market seems to be working just fine in my area. Some restaurants have shut down. Some have raised prices. Some have decreased service. Which is the right approach? I don't know. The restaurants that took the right approach will win out in the end. In the meanwhile I'm still able to eat out.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#109

Post by webmaven » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:55 PM UTC

tester756 wrote: post #98

mind-blight wrote: post #58

I'm concerned that the majority of "should we fix college or should we circumvent college" conversations don't bring up one of the scariest parts of our current economy: STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. All of the conversations I've seen implicitly assume that this is good, and that the solution to farmer workers (or other low paid workers) escaping poverty is to train them as so…

That's real problem Only one person (the oldest one) from my like 20-30ppl circle within age range of 20-30 gets close to IT salaries, that's ridiculous in most cases it is around 40% (around 2 minimal wages) of my *nothing special* salary by IT standards (4.5 minimal wages), people with better cards get 7-10 minimal wages here, top people like 15-20+ and they see no reasonably easy way to jump higher (e.g within one…

Cards?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#110

Post by tester756 » Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

webmaven wrote: post #109

tester756 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's real problem Only one person (the oldest one) from my like 20-30ppl circle within age range of 20-30 gets close to IT salaries, that's ridiculous in most cases it is around 40% (around 2 minimal wages) of my *nothing special* salary by IT standards (4.5 minimal wages), people with better cards get 7-10 minimal wages here, top people like 15-20+ and they see no reasonably easy way to jump higher (e.g within one…

Cards?

>have a card up your sleeve

>to have an advantage that other people do not know about:

(without that last part)